Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

[The Man]

NO...Canseco admitted he used 'roids....There is no way he should be in....End of discussion about Canseco...

Admitting it is worse than lying about it or not answering at all? Don't think so...... Canseco has more stones than McGwire/Bonds/Giambi/etc all put together.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

Giambi admitted he took 'roids......

 

[The Man]

Giambi admitted he took 'roids......

actually he didn't. He apologized to all the fans and baseball but never said what he was apologizing for. Leaked grand jury testimony admitted for him that he took steroids. The issue was the Yankees could have voided his contract if he went on ESPN and said he took steroids.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

actually he didn't. He apologized to all the fans and baseball but never said what he was apologizing for. Leaked grand jury testimony admitted for him that he took steroids. The issue was the Yankees could have voided his contract if he went on ESPN and said he took steroids.

whatever the circumstances with him we all know that he took them.....we know that Mark took Andro, which at the time was not a banned supplement......

 

[The Man]

whatever the circumstances with him we all know that he took them.....we know that Mark took Andro, which at the time was not a banned supplement......

we knew he took them because of a leak, don't make it sound as if Giambi was a stand-up guy about the situation. As for McGwire, you really believe he only took Andro? Sounds like that is what you would like to believe, sure doesn't sound that way when he testified.

 

[zBuckeye10z]

whatever the circumstances with him we all know that he took them.....we know that Mark took Andro, which at the time was not a banned supplement......

And if it wasn't a banned supplement at the time then there is nothing to convict him on. McGwire took the Andro back then so what he was doing was legal; which means that every other player in the MLB could have taken the same thing (Andro), but would they have the same results as McGwire. No they wouldn't because he was Mark McGwire, a homerun champion, arguably one of the greatest players of all time. So we are talking about Mark McGwire getting into the Hall Of Fame for his time when he played then. Not now. Today Andro is illegal in the MLB so how can it go against McGwire for back then. McGwire deserves his spot in the Hall Of Fame for what he did to the game of baseball and how he helped it.

 

[The Man]

No they wouldn't because he was Mark McGwire, a homerun champion, arguably one of the greatest players of all time.

wow, that would be a very short argument.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

This argument could go in a several different directions but let me throw out a few questions.

Should a one dimensional player go in the Hall of Fame?

Why not, there already are several in the hall.

If you answer yes, my follow up questions are does it matter that the one dimension was possibly helped through an outside substance?

Nope. It didn't seem to matter to Gaylord Perry's induction, and he openly admitted to doctoring baseballs his entire career.

We're hitting and throwing baseballs here, people, not saving whales.

If one dimensional players should go in, then shouldn't a guy who only hits doubles, or the best singles hitters, or the top saves leaders, etc go in?

Check out how many hits Ty Cobb would have without all his 3,000+ singles. Rollie Fingers was a pure Saves man.... and he's not even the "best" anymore. Dennis Eckersley got in on his RP duties, not his SP career.

If you think McGwire should go in the hall, shouldn't Canseco go in also? They're essentially the same hitter...the only difference in their stat line is 150 homers in McGwire's favor and 150 steals in Canseco's favor.

Actually Canseco has better all around hitting numbers but thats an entirely different argument.

I don't like Canseco, and he admitted to using roids. And, I don't care. If he's got the numbers, he's in. I don't think he did it long enough... a flash in the pan, if you ask me. But, if he gets in, I won't be crying about it. Once again, we're talking about hitting and throwing a ball, not saving the world. Ty Cobb's in, and he killed a man. Canseco shot some drugs in his own ass. Who gives a fuck?

 

[Bucklion]

Why not, there already are several in the hall.


Nope. It didn't seem to matter to Gaylord Perry's induction, and he openly admitted to doctoring baseballs his entire career.

We're hitting and throwing baseballs here, people, not saving whales.


Check out how many hits Ty Cobb would have without all his 3,000+ singles. Rollie Fingers was a pure Saves man.... and he's not even the "best" anymore. Dennis Eckersley got in on his RP duties, not his SP career.



I don't like Canseco, and he admitted to using roids. And, I don't care. If he's got the numbers, he's in. I don't think he did it long enough... a flash in the pan, if you ask me. But, if he gets in, I won't be crying about it. Once again, we're talking about hitting and throwing a ball, not saving the world. Ty Cobb's in, and he killed a man. Canseco shot some drugs in his own ass. Who gives a fuck?

Canseco was a flash in the pan?

Seasons with:

25+ HR: McGwire 13, Canseco 10
90+ RBI: McGwire 10, Canseco 8
SLG .500+: McGwire 11, Canseco 9
15+ SB: Canseco 7, McGwire 0

His numbers might not be quite as good, but McGwire hardly blows him away, excat least in season-per-season comparison

 

[tyrus]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070103&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2

 

[OH10]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070103&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2

I normally agree with the Sports Guy, but he acts like '98 would be erased from the history books if Sosa and McGwire aren't in. Last time I checked, (and that would be last summer), the Hall of Fame has commemorated that season with plenty of shit.

I don't buy the argument that, just because other cheaters are there means that we shouldn't discriminate now. Did I get a choice as to whether those players or any players should have made it in? No. But I'll give you my .2 on it ... now .... with this player.

Further, as I've stated, this kind of cheating is different. To creat a level playing field, other players would need to take the same risks as Lyle Alzado and Ken Caminiti. Some choice huh? This isn't like corking a bat or using too much pine tar.

I am convinced that McGwire took illegal steroids. And I will base that on his inability to answer the question. Is he legally entitled to avoid the question? Yes. But should he answer to question? Absolutely. He doesn't get a free pass. This isn't criminal court. This is the Hall of Fame, and he is not legally entitled to be inducted. And he shouldn't be inducted if he can't answer the question.

 

[Bucklion]

I was watching the scrolling thing at the bottom of ESPN News last night, and they had a report that they took some sort of straw poll of voters for the HOF, and their results showed that McGwire will only get something like 25% of the votes...enough to keep him eligible but way less than necessary obviously.

 

[Bleed S & G]

The problem with the steroid game is that there is no way to factor that "x" home runs have been created out of thin air by drug use, when it's widely believed that just as many pitchers are juiced as the hitters.

The sample size is very small, but power numbers are UP across the board from where they were five years ago in MLB, and I think that generally, where the pitchers and the hitters are locked in a cat-and-mouse, zero-sum game, the offensive explosion is due to a more tightly wound ball and smaller ballparks.

Using Barry Bonds as an example, would his career numbers change dramatically if he never (presumably) juiced, but also played his entire career in a venue more forgiving of a left handed hitter? Let's be honest, Three Rivers, Candlestick, and AT&T Park are all very, very difficult places to hit home runs. Those mammoth blasts that Barry launches into McCovey Cove are incredible, and he does it with such regularity that viewers forget that something like only five or six other hitters have done that, ever.

Are Barry's numbers less legitimate than those for players in Colorado, Cleveland, Houston, or Philadelphia who presumably play fair?

There are a hundred variables that are effecting the HR numbers, and my feeling is that 'roids aren't as big a factor in baseball as many of us would first think. There's some validity that steroids would actually do more harm for a baseball player than good, since the increased mass would probably be accompanied by decreased range of motion and hand speed -- and despite all of that, when all is said and done, none of that helps you hit a baseball thrown by a MLB pitcher, which I consider one of the most difficult feats of any pro sport.

Steroids didn't help Bonds's batting eye, and that is arguably his best asset -- not his HR power.

Speaking of eyes ... are Tiger Woods or Greg Maddux cheaters since they had Lasik?

Yes the real problem is that you cant calculate which ones should count and shouldnt - the solution: none of them count because you cheated.

In terms of everything effecting HR #s.. yes of course - this is the way its always been. wheter it be the height of the pitching mound, dead/alive balls, or park dimensions - those are all part of the game and the era's.

Is Bonds a great hitter? IMO yes. He always had incredible hand speed and a short sweet swing. He's a hell of a ball player, he has 500 steals i think as well to go with all his golden gloves from left.

But, how many warning track pop fly's turned into homeruns? How many line drives turned into rocket shots into the cove? Like you said we can never tell, so unfortuantley for barry - since you cheated you lose. See Shoeless Joe... and his world series numbers from the Blacksox scandal and Pete Rose - neither of them did anything worse IMO and they are kept out.

Lets pretend strength didnt matter in hitting homeruns - Barrys HR #s are still bogus - the roids do help recovery, and that makes a 40 year old in last games of a long season recover like a rookie. Thats cheating.

But the roids definatley do help the power #s, not all by themselves - but is it a coincidence that sammy, big mac, and bonds are the recent homerun kings? i dont think so. they definatley matter.

 

[Bucklion]

I was watching the scrolling thing at the bottom of ESPN News last night, and they had a report that they took some sort of straw poll of voters for the HOF, and their results showed that McGwire will only get something like 25% of the votes...enough to keep him eligible but way less than necessary obviously.

128/545 ballots....23.4%

 

[Best Buckeye]

If a man defies the rules of his sport, breaks the rules of his sport, cheats,gambles, sullies his sport, or defame it in any way he does not belong in the hall of fame.
The halls of fame are meant to showcase a sport, to bear witness to its name and the names of all the greats who have obeyed the rules and made the sport what it is.
To all who say that someone belongs because of a record or longevity, or because what he did didn't really hurt the game (gambling) you are defaming the game you love.
A hall of fame is the pinnacle, the epitomy of success in a sport. It is not to be belittled.
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