Do you think Mark McGwire should be in the Hall of Fame?

[CookyPuss]

Exactly. That is what I was implying with saying his physical changes are consistent with roid use.


BB73 brings up other good points.

Head growth is likely due to taking Human Growth Hormone and not steroids. There are no urine tests available for HGH so it is not covered by MLB's current testing and is a bigger problem than steroids. Cheaters will always stay ahead of the curve.

What I think will be interesting is to see how Bonds produces this season. Last year he was coming off the injury and I am curious to see what he does with a "healthy" body in the "testing" era. He was swinging the bat noticeably better at the end of the year. Although he could be taking HGH or other substances which cannot be detected in testing. So a monster year would not really "prove" anything.

As far as the HOF and home run record goes, ask Hank Aaron. I'll take his opinion over anybody else.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I just don't see the analogy to criminal justice. It's a privilege, not a right to be in the Hall of Fame. A better analogy might be to that of becoming an attorney. It's a privilege to be an attorney.

I don't think it's unfair for McGwire to answer a question relevant to his admission to the Hall, just as its not unfair for the Bar Admissions committee to have asked you or I questions for admission to the bar. I couldn't refuse to answer those questions and he can't refuse to answer this one.

To the extent that your argument is based on McGwire's Congressional testimony, then I'd say the criminal justice analogy is much more relevant than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I think we need to start a poll on Bonds, and see if it would be as close. I get the feeling that McGwire is just more revered because he wasn't prick like Bonds.

But does anyone here want to see Barry Bonds break Hank Aaron's record? If he did, would you consider it legit?

Barry Bonds' personality doesn't concern me in the least. Is he a prick? I don't know. I guess. But, the son-of-a-bitch sure can hit.

Do I want Bonds to break Aaron's record? No. I like Aaron better.. personal preference. Will I consider it legit? Yep. I happen to believe offensively, there may not have been a more complete and consistent hitter than Hank Aaron... maybe Mays or Williams. That opinion won't change if Bonds hits 756. I get the "steroid" taint, especially with Bonds considering his "gosh, I didn't know I was being rubbed down with roids" bullshit. But, what he's done is incredible. I don't know how steroids help you see the ball better. I don't know that a little extra beef on your bones makes a difference... so Bonds can hit McCovy Cove, instead of the 4th row of the RF bleachers... an HR is a HR regardless of distance. The man sees about 80 pitches a year (the rest are pure junk), and he hits 50 of them out of the park.

A better question is, how many of Bonds' home runs should we take away? By that I mean, suppose roids have given him an extra 10 feet of distance... 20 feet... whatever... How many shots in his career (post roids) would have fell short of the wall if we subtract that footage.

 

[BB73]

A better question is, how many of Bonds' home runs should we take away?

To determine this number, subtract 754 from his final total.

 

[OH10]

I don't know how steroids help you see the ball better. I don't know that a little extra beef on your bones makes a difference... so Bonds can hit McCovy Cove, instead of the 4th row of the RF bleachers... an HR is a HR regardless of distance. The man sees about 80 pitches a year (the rest are pure junk), and he hits 50 of them out of the park.

My response to that is simple... why take steroids? If it doesn't make a difference, why damage the public's perception of your accomplishments by using steroids? Why take the health risks if it doesn't add to your abilities?

(David Boston would answer that question that he simply wanted to oil up and look good - but he's a freak, so he doesn't count)

To the extent that your argument is based on McGwire's Congressional testimony, then I'd say the criminal justice analogy is much more relevant than you're giving it credit for.

Not at all. I can form an opinion that OJ killed his ex-wife and some poor sap. He's wasn't convicted in a court of law. Hell, he even flat denied it. (well, before he half admitted it).

Would I convict Big Mac on a jury of using illegal steroids? No - That case would get Rule 29'd behind the bench. But this isn't a court of law. I happen to be a juror in the court of public opinion. If he came out and denied it, my opinion could probably change. As it stands now, I have no reason to doubt his guilt.

A better question is, how many of Bonds' home runs should we take away? By that I mean, suppose roids have given him an extra 10 feet of distance... 20 feet... whatever... How many shots in his career (post roids) would have fell short of the wall if we subtract that footage.

I don't have an issue with disregarding most of his accomplishments, post '99. If the players didn't think that what they were doing was wrong, why don't they just come out and admit it? Sure, they weren't breaking the rules. But they knew it was wrong. That's why they don't answer the questions. (Sosa, Mac). That's why some lie (Rafi, Bonds). They knew it was wrong then, and they know its wrong now. They didn't need some rule to tell them that.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

SD, I don't doubt there is some benefit.... but I'm not sure what it is in the game of baseball. I can see where roids help a football player (well, help being the wrong term, but the one the encompasses what I'm trying to say). But, baseball? Basketball? I guess I dont see the point in roiding up in these sports. It's not muscle mass that gets the job done on the court or the baseball diamond. Bat speed, I would think, is perhaps marginally increased with roids... I don't know that wrist muscles and forearms can really be beefed up all that much even with the "benefit" of roids... But, I get your point. Frankly, I think it may be more psychological. "I took the juice, I must be stronger" when it comes to baseball. And, I won't disagree it's stupid. I guess Lyle Alzado's death and Caminitti's (sp) isn't enough to deter these guys...

On the issue of if the players didn't think they were doing anything wrong... I agree that that is a no brainer. It may not have been illegal in baseball, but it was illegal in the united states, so far as I know, to possess (and use) HGH, for example. For me, the issue about the hall isn't about the cheating. As I said early on, cheating is part of baseball. We kinda chuckle when a Pitcher tries to hide his emery board when the ump comes to the mound. We laugh off the SP who admits to throwing spitters his entire career... oh.. those crazy Pitchers.... Well... cheating is cheating, whether it's roids or pine tar on your thumb... or a corked bat. We don't have a "real" problem with one, let all kinds of cheaters in to the hall... but we have an issue with the other? Doesn't seem right to me. And, in McGwire's case, we dont even know for sure he did anything "wrong" or cheated... we have a hunch. That's the travesty, here... throwing a guy under the bus we don't even know did anything wrong, and yet... Gaylord Perry's bust sits in Cooperstown.

Cheatershttp://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

 

[OH10]

On the issue of if the players didn't think they were doing anything wrong... I agree that that is a no brainer. It may not have been illegal in baseball, but it was illegal in the united states, so far as I know, to possess (and use) HGH, for example. For me, the issue about the hall isn't about the cheating. As I said early on, cheating is part of baseball. We kinda chuckle when a Pitcher tries to hide his emery board when the ump comes to the mound. We laugh off the SP who admits to throwing spitters his entire career... oh.. those crazy Pitchers.... Well... cheating is cheating, whether it's roids or pine tar on your thumb... or a corked bat. We don't have a "real" problem with one, let all kinds of cheaters in to the hall... but we have an issue with the other? Doesn't seem right to me. And, in McGwire's case, we dont even know for sure he did anything "wrong" or cheated... we have a hunch. That's the travesty, here... throwing a guy under the bus we don't even know did anything wrong, and yet... Gaylord Perry's bust sits in Cooperstown.

I guess one main difference between the cheating you reference and the use of steroids is the health issue. You brought up Alzado and Caminiti, so I'll give you credit for helping me shed light on this difference. One kind of cheating is the competitive advantage. The other is the competitive advantage with health complications.

If some pitcher scuffs his ball, the batter says "fuck you then, take this cork" and they can try to get even. If players start using steroids and pumping out records numbers of home runs, other players say "wait a minute, do I want to run the risk or be run out of the league?" That's a bullshit decision to have to be put to - your health or your career?

That's why I don't give a shit that steroids wasn't against the rules. First of all, many forms were already illegal, so a rule would have been redundant. But second of all, the players knew it was wrong. They knew the health concerns, and they knew that the "keep up with the Joneses" attitude would require other players to use and abuse. If you believe some of the people around Bonds, that's exactly what happened with him. He saw Big Mac and Sosa hittin' all the homers, said to himself "what are they on?" and decided "can I get some of it?"

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Well, this won't come off as very noble, but honestly, I could give a shit if these guys are taking HGH, Andro, or fish tranquilizers. If it were my kid, I'd care. If it's these guys? Honestly, I don't give a rats ass. I just wanna see someone score some damn points.

I realize that's a pretty boxed up idea that doesn't consider a great deal of ramifications, it's just that I'm not a big "it takes a village" guy, and when it comes to responsibility to my kids (as you (Or was it BL) before mentioned being role models) it falls on me and my wife, not Barry Bonds and Cooperstown.... you know?

I, obviously, don't want to see people suffer with various health problems, but honestly, at the end of the day, I sleep just the same .... it's my immediates that I care about, health wise... not Mark McGwire. Well... and any Ohio State player

 

[Buckin' A]

Who gives a damn about steriods? Now eating some Mentos then chuggin a Coke...that's a boost!

 

[Dryden]

What I think will be interesting is to see how Bonds produces this season. Last year he was coming off the injury and I am curious to see what he does with a "healthy" body in the "testing" era. He was swinging the bat noticeably better at the end of the year. Although he could be taking HGH or other substances which cannot be detected in testing. So a monster year would not really "prove" anything.

I'd imagine that it's too late to matter. The benefit of HGH, Andro, 'roids, or whatever would be seen most in the recovery phase after winter/spring conditioning and workouts. My understanding is that supplements in and of themselves don't build mass, so the physical changes are already there. He'd probably drop some of the mass that he wouldn't be able to maintain, but he'll never shrink back down to the late-80s Barry he used to be.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Bonds' increased headsize has nothing to do with roids and everything to do with ego?

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Bonds' increased headsize has nothing to do with roids and everything to do with ego?

its got to be 'roids......NOBODYS head can get as big as his ego....

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

its got to be 'roids......NOBODYS head can get as big as his ego....

You're probably right....

 

[Buckin' A]

I'd imagine that it's too late to matter. The benefit of HGH, Andro, 'roids, or whatever would be seen most in the recovery phase after winter/spring conditioning and workouts. My understanding is that supplements in and of themselves don't build mass, so the physical changes are already there. He'd probably drop some of the mass that he wouldn't be able to maintain, but he'll never shrink back down to the late-80s Barry he used to be.

Actually, roids speed up your recovery time about 10 fold. Meaning that if you worked out real hard Monday, it would typically take until about Friday for your muscles to recover and build the extra mass. With roids, some guys will work out twice a day and do the same body part every other day. Roids are testosterone (which is what helps your muscles not only recover, but grow). So the mass that would normally take about 3 months to gain can be done in about 2 weeks. It also give you more strength. And the more you lift, the more you strain your muscles...more strain=more gains.

 

[OH10]

Well, this won't come off as very noble, but honestly, I could give a shit if these guys are taking HGH, Andro, or fish tranquilizers. If it were my kid, I'd care. If it's these guys? Honestly, I don't give a rats ass. I just wanna see someone score some damn points.

I realize that's a pretty boxed up idea that doesn't consider a great deal of ramifications, it's just that I'm not a big "it takes a village" guy, and when it comes to responsibility to my kids (as you (Or was it BL) before mentioned being role models) it falls on me and my wife, not Barry Bonds and Cooperstown.... you know?

I, obviously, don't want to see people suffer with various health problems, but honestly, at the end of the day, I sleep just the same .... it's my immediates that I care about, health wise... not Mark McGwire. Well... and any Ohio State player

At least you're honest. When Big Mac suffers an untimely death in 2009, no one can really say they were surprised.