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Dash of Doubt: Truth about 40 times?

MililaniBuckeye said:
Johnson's was electronically timed (Olympics).


Actually-- There was a thread last week where BB73 did some calculations as to speed (seconds per meter) and came up with something like 4.42 for Maurice Green's 50m (or 60m) whichever.

But, he and I PM'd a couple of times... now... I think Wdg is right on the fact that in a "track event" the timing is done gun to tape... but in a 40... at least hand timed 40's are timed from "First Movement" (or hands leaving the ground) to tape....

Soooo... if you are in a track event, you have to react to the gun... AND I beleive if you react faster than .08 (maybe .06) its a false start...

So... if you take a .08 reaction time (best possible, theoretically) there... it takes the same Maurice Green result and makes it a 4.34. (From the 4.42)

Furthermore... the guy with the stop watch has to react to the start of the 40... so take ANOTHER .08 off the 4.34 and you get 4.26.

Now.. those are best case reaction times... so if its really .15 on both ends then you've got a 4.12 40 yards out of Maurice Green's time... and that's only if the guy with the stop watch is very accurate at "the tape" in a 40... (which of course is going to be a bit closer, hopefully in that he can anticipate when the runner will cross the tape)

Point being, with those factors involved, you can see how they can come up with 4.25's (or whatever) in a 40 yd dash with the guy actually running slower than Maurice Green's 4.42... or Ben Johnson's 4.38.

Edit- Nightmare.. somehow I skimmed over your post... sorry for restating your same point.
 
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AKAK: Maurice Green's time was electronic (as are all major track meets), so there's no reaction delay on part of some dude holding a stop watch.

Also, hand-timed events aren't from "first movement" but from the sound of the start signal (gun, buzzer, etc.). If it were from the "first movement" then what's the use of even having a start signal?
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
AKAK: Maurice Green's time was electronic (as are all major track meets), so there's no reaction delay on part of some dude holding a stop watch.

Also, hand-timed events aren't from "first movement" but from the sound of the start signal (gun, buzzer, etc.). If it were from the "first movement" then what's the use of even having a start signal?

I talking about the stopwatch delay while running a 40, Maurice Green is reacting to the gun.... that's the delay in a track event Green hearing the gun, and then going.

And Yes... many hand timed events are form the first movement... every 40 I ever ran in my life was timed that way... because they don't always have start signals... and even if they do have the start signal.. if the timer reacts slower than the runner, there's time taken off compared to the "track event"
 
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I think that factoring in the legal reaction time, the world record holders would be very close to a 4.30 electronic 40-yarder that started on their movement. And those are records that were set with a somewhat favorable wind.

World record sprint times have a limit of 2 meters/second. The difference between still air and a 2 meter/second wind at your back is between .04 and .05 seconds over 40 yards.

So with no wind, if someone runs an electronic 4.35 that started on their movement, that equates to world-class speed.

Sorry, Mili, I was typing and didn't see your 'End of Discussion'! :biggrin:
 
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MililaniBuckeye said:
For the last time, no one, NO ONE, on this planet can run a legit sub-4.3 40.

CAN

NOT

BE

DONE.

End of discussion.

Just to clarify... I never said they could (or couldn't) I'm just pointing out that comparing electronic track times to hand timed 40 times are apples to oranges... and that's why you can get inconsistent measurments.
 
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CPD

2/21

Million-dollar maybe: One-tenth of a second


Tuesday, February 21, 2006Doug Lesmerises
Plain Dealer Reporter
The confused repairman stands in the lobby, waiting to be directed toward the broken heater at Speed Strength Systems Inc. in Euclid. He can wait. He has time this Monday morning.
Across the lobby on the other side of a glass partition, the value of time rises exponentially.
There, exploding down a 40-yard strip of green artificial turf, future NFL draft picks know that one-tenth of a second could be worth a million dollars.
All over the country for the past six weeks, from Atlanta to Phoenix, from Orlando to this chilly warehouse complex off Euclid Avenue, college football players have consulted a specific brand of workout expert, preparing for the NFL Combine that begins in Indianapolis on Wednesday. They have been focusing on technical details and training their fast-twitch muscle fibers in drills that have little to do with making them better football players.
"That's not really the point -- can it make them better football players," said trainer Eric Lichter, who runs Speed Strength with his partner Tim Robertson. "But there can be a huge result. The tangible result for a first-round guy to move from the 27th pick to the 20th pick could be a couple million dollars."
One of the quickest ways for a player to improve his draft stock is by dropping his time in the 40-yard dash. Though Lichter estimates 80 percent of a player's draft value is determined by how he played in college, the $1 million tenth of a second does exist as the best of the best are separated.
"It's literally true, it is worth that much in a signing bonus and draft position," said Loren Seagrave, the founder of Velocity Sports Performance, which operates 61 training centers in the U.S. and Canada, including one in Mayfield Heights. More than 90 football players have been working out at their facilities.
Ohio State safety Donte Whitner is a prized client at Speed Strength, where he first worked out five years ago while still playing at Glenville High School. When Whitner and cornerback Ashton Youboty turned pro after their junior seasons at OSU, even Buckeyes coach Jim Tressel said their draft fates would come down to the combine.
A bad time may even do more bad than a fast time does good. When OSU's Chris Gamble turned pro after his junior year two years ago, he was talked about as a possible top 10 pick.
After running a below-average 4.54 in the 40 while working out for scouts in Columbus, he was picked No. 28 by Carolina. Gamble agreed to a $9.1 million, five-year contract with a $2.75 million signing bonus.

The No. 10 pick in the draft was another cornerback, Dunta Robinson. He signed for six years and $11.4 million with Houston, including a $4 million signing bonus.
They have been equally solid pros, but Robinson has the monetary edge.
"Gamble cost himself millions of dollars," Lichter said.
Whitner wants to go the other way and open some eyes. He said if he runs a 4.6 40 at the combine, he will be no higher than a fourth-round pick. If he runs a 4.3, he thinks he will go in the late first round or early second round. Several weeks ago, on his third 40 of the day after squatting 375 pounds, he ran a 4.39. He likes his chances.
"I know it affects your draft status a lot," Whitner said. "I'm thinking about that every day."
The quest for that extra tenth grows more sophisticated each year. Seagrave helped start combine training more than a decade ago with the International Performance Institute in Bradenton, Fla., which now serves only clients of the Cleveland-based agency IMG. Among the experts working with IMG clients is Michael Johnson, a five-time Olympic gold medalist in the 200 and 400 meters. In Columbus, two-time Olympic track medalist Butch Reynolds returned to his alma mater, Ohio State, where he not only worked with the football team during the season, but has been tutoring Buckeyes such as Mike Kudla and A.J. Hawk in their combine prep.
Seagrave scoffs at the old notion that speed can't be taught, insisting that by cocking a player's foot in the right way and retraining his nervous system, speed can be gained.
"We're teaching them to be more like a super ball than a bean bag," Seagrave said.
For other combine drills, like a shuttle run and a test where players weave around three cones in about four seconds, the training can be very specific, down to counting strides and advising which hand to put down first on the starting line. The training is shaped so the athletes peak at the combine, with the plan never to be that fast again.
"They aren't trying to hold that level of performance," Lichter said. "Getting ready for the combine is a completely different animal than getting ready for camp."

Players might not understand exactly what they're doing or why they're doing it. They all know you can't just show up in Indianapolis in front of 32 NFL general managers and run. So in Euclid, 25 players paid between $100 and $175 per day over six weeks for the expertise offered by Lichter and Robinson.
"It's a big deal, but I still don't see what it has to do with what you do on the field," said safety Nate Salley, who was a senior captain for Ohio State this season. "If you like me better than another guy on film, why is my 40 going to stop me from making an extra million dollars just because some guy ran faster than me? I don't know where all this came from, but it's important now, so that's why I'm here working on it."
Salley, a savvy player and respected leader, isn't likely to set the combine on fire with his numbers. He's better when judged in total as a teammate, so his stance makes sense.
Other players, such as Cleveland Heights grad Barry Cofield, who played defensive tackle at Northwestern, are more eager to be judged alone.
"A lot of times you get forced into a box based on what your coaches want you to play, but scouts see you running and jumping and they see what kind of athlete you are," Cofield said. "You have those GMs in the stands, it's just like a professor staring down at you. Pencils or cleats, it's all the same, you've got to perform on a test, you've got to perform at the combine."
A great test can only earn you an "A." A great combine can earn you millions. So everyone has been cramming.
To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:
[email protected], 216-999-4748
 
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All of which reminds me of the EXTRAORDINARY speed of a certain Buckeye. Keep in mind that he grew up in poverty, in the depression, ran with leather shoes, no starting blocks, you took a little shovel with you and dug a hole for your feet... even in Berlin... where his times were taken electronically. Adjusted for meters instead of yards and adjusted for the technology difference, he remains the premier track performer of all time:On May 25, 1935, at the Big Ten Conference Championships, Owens broke three world records and tied a fourth, all in a 70 minute span.
In the 1936 Berlin Olympics, he won four gold medals: 100 meter dash in 10.3 seconds (tying the world record), long jump with a jump of 26' 5 1/4" (Olympic record), 200 meter dash in 20.7 seconds (Olympic record), and 400 meter relay (first leg) in 39.8 seconds (Olympic and world record) The Long Jump record stands until Bob Beamon's incredible jump making it one of the longest enduring records in track history.
 
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All of which reminds me of the EXTRAORDINARY speed of a certain Buckeye. Keep in mind that he grew up in poverty, in the depression, ran with leather shoes, no starting blocks, you took a little shovel with you and dug a hole for your feet... even in Berlin... where his times were taken electronically. Adjusted for meters instead of yards and adjusted for the technology difference, he remains the premier track performer of all time:On May 25, 1935, at the Big Ten Conference Championships, Owens broke three world records and tied a fourth, all in a 70 minute span.
In the 1936 Berlin Olympics, he won four gold medals: 100 meter dash in 10.3 seconds (tying the world record), long jump with a jump of 26' 5 1/4" (Olympic record), 200 meter dash in 20.7 seconds (Olympic record), and 400 meter relay (first leg) in 39.8 seconds (Olympic and world record).

Owen's feats were amazing, but his world record in the long jump actually lasted 25 years until broken in the summer of 1960 by Ralph Boston (26' 11 1/4). The record in 1968 was Boston's 27' 4 3/4 (set in 1965) when Beamon jumped 29' 2 1/2. It was the only time in his life that Beamon exceeded the previous record's distance.
 
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what cracks me up about this article is that they are comparing two totally different things. Talk to anyone that follows football and they know that 40 time for football and track times have nothing in common. Basically this article goes into detail to explain something that everyone already knows.


Next on the agenda, the sky is blue.
 
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Great Article, thanks for the post

Great Article thanks for the post.

This discussion is making me think about Chimdi Chekwa.

I'm looking at the BP thread on him now and it says 4.49 40. On Bucknuts, I saw that his time was around 4.54. They show that at a "combine," he ran a 4.69 40.

I was kind of wondering (doubting) about his speed and forgive me for relying on the numbers. But then I noticed that Chimdi played football and ran track.

"He has competed at the state track meet the past two years in the 300-meter hurdles and holds the East Ridge school record in three events -- the 100 (10.79 seconds), the 200 (22.2 seconds) and 300 hurdles (38.7 seconds)."

Anyway, I just thought I'd ask the board how they think JT looks at speed. I wonder if they rely on OSU camp times more than others. Or that they may disregard 40 times in favor of others.

This "40 Time Voodoo" makes me wonder what the best method of measuring player speed is.

Any ideas or thoughts on the Chimdi issue?
:oh:
 
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This has been said many times before, but...

40 Yard Dash has little to actually do with football. Rarely does a player ever run 40 yards on the field. To me, a 10 yard dash would be a better tool to judge a player, since there is a higher chance that he will be going 10 yards, than 40 yards.
 
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This has been said many times before, but...

40 Yard Dash has little to actually do with football. Rarely does a player ever run 40 yards on the field. To me, a 10 yard dash would be a better tool to judge a player, since there is a higher chance that he will be going 10 yards, than 40 yards.

I don't know why, but this just makes me laugh ...
 
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