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Cleveland Indians (official 2012 season)

NFBuck;2140218; said:
Yeah, I mean, we got our #1 starter in that one...and Boston got Victor for 1.5 years and lost him in FA. If anything, we won that trade...

As for the other two, the trade market just wasn't there. I think they did the best they could. Sure the guys haven't panned out, and maybe some of that can be blamed on poor development, but I don't recall any better offers at the time. It sucks that those two trades netted very little, but I can't blame the FO for that. Hell, LaBusta was a top-10 prospect in all of baseball, IIRC. Getting Santana for Blake takes some of the sting away from the C.C. trade...for me, at least. Sure, they could have held on to Lee for another year, but it's not like they had the horses to make a run with him on the roster, anyway. Trading vets at the deadline is a buyers market now. Teams typically just aren't willing to part with their top prospects for rentals anymore.
What drives me crazy with the Phili trade is how we bargained. We got Carrasco, who to be fair, never had injury problems beofre and was the least prominant guy, Donald who was supposed to be a great utility infielder, Lou Marson (catcher of the future!) who is great defensively but can't hit a fastball from my sister, and (don't underestimate how pissed off this makes me to this day) Knapp, a freaking guy coming off of Tommy-John surgery and will never be healthy. The most coveted guy in that trade was coming off of a possible career ending injury!!! What the hell Mark? We had the reigning Cy Young winner and didn't even get any one of the Phillies top four prospects. I would have taken Lee off of the table at that point. Phili didn't want to offer any of their top four prospects but still wanted Lee... AND WE GAVE THEM TO HIM! This is why I cannot stand Mark Shapiro and why he needs to go. I understand that he is handcuffed by Dolan's cheap ass, but it was up to him to get the best value possible. He didn't get anywhere near that. Shame on you Mark.
 
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A Pac;2140240; said:
What drives me crazy with the Phili trade is how we bargained. We got Carrasco, who to be fair, never had injury problems beofre and was the least prominant guy, Donald who was supposed to be a great utility infielder, Lou Marson (catcher of the future!) who is great defensively but can't hit a fastball from my sister, and (don't underestimate how pissed off this makes me to this day) Knapp, a freaking guy coming off of Tommy-John surgery and will never be healthy. The most coveted guy in that trade was coming off of a possible career ending injury!!! What the hell Mark? We had the reigning Cy Young winner and didn't even get any one of the Phillies top four prospects. I would have taken Lee off of the table at that point. Phili didn't want to offer any of their top four prospects but still wanted Lee... AND WE GAVE THEM TO HIM! This is why I cannot stand Mark Shapiro and why he needs to go. I understand that he is handcuffed by Dolan's cheap ass, but it was up to him to get the best value possible. He didn't get anywhere near that. Shame on you Mark.
Well, thing is, there were no better offers out there. We figured we were getting (at least) a #3 starter in Carrasco. Obviously, injuries have derailed him thus far, but he's still young. We'll have to see how he bounces back. He has looked really good for a few stretches, so there's potential there. Marson should be useful against lefties...but I don't think they ever saw him as the "catcher of the future" by any means...especially with Santana around. Donald at least provides a versatile middle infield option. It's not like Philly's top prospects from that year are lighting it up anyway.

Obviously, the return hasn't been great, but it is what it is. That was the best offer on the table. Sure, they could have held on to him for another year, but, what for? It's not like they were gonna be competitive. Plus, do you really think his trade value goes up with less time on his contract? Maybe, but it's a roll of the dice. They took a shot, and missed. If anything, maybe they need better evaluators of talent. But, at the time, the better trades were not there. Like i said, those kinds of trades are a buyers market now. It's not like it was 5-10 years ago, when teams would willingly unload their top prospects for deadline acquisitions. It just doesn't happen often anymore.
 
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:lol: gotta love this headline

and it's sad, the stadium used to rock.....now it's a ghost town pretty much

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/04/12/few-fans-witness-indians-dismal-play.html

Few fans witness Indians? dismal play

CLEVELAND ? It was a lousy day for baseball, and there was plenty of lousy baseball to match the depressing mood at Progressive Field yesterday afternoon.

The Chicago White Sox beat the Cleveland Indians 10-6, making fewer significant blunders and delivering six hits in nine at-bats with runners in scoring position.

Temperature at first pitch was 45 degrees with a 36-degree wind-chill factor. Winds were out of the north at about 20 miles per hour, and occasionally it drizzled. Gray clouds continually passed overhead, giving way to more gray clouds until the eighth inning, when the skies brightened, but not for the Indians.

In the seventh inning, at least 24 sections of the ballpark were devoid of humanity. Another 14 sections were populated by fewer than 20 fans each. Official attendance (tickets sold) was 9,072, but there probably were no more than 2,000 people in the seats.

That was the good news for the Tribe. The fewer people who watch what the team is doing on the field now, the better.

In the first four games, hitting was the primary problem. Yesterday, it was pitching, both by the starter and the relievers.

Not even Justin Masterson could save the day, and Masterson has been the gold standard of the Indians? rotation. This time out, he had a hard time keeping the ball down and out of the middle of the plate.

When he did control his sinking fastball, White Sox batters bounced singles through the infield.

He struggled from the outset, unable to overcome a first-inning error by Jack Hannahan at third base that led to four runs, one unearned.

?Masterson was OK,? Indians manager Manny Acta said. ?He was a little inconsistent with his command, but we didn?t play good defense.?

Acta emphasized the importance of Hannahan?s misplay.

?That error in the first opened up the whole thing for him,? Acta said. ?Masterson was not as dominant (as usual), but he wasn?t bad at all.?

Masterson made it to the fifth without giving up another run, but an error by Casey Kotchman at first preceded three consecutive singles to hand the Sox their fifth run, also unearned.

?I didn?t totally know where the ball was going early on,? Masterson said. ?But I worked through it and settled down.?

Masterson didn?t blame the weather conditions.

?That had nothing to do with it,? he said. ?I was missing my spots at times. I got ground balls, but all the hits were ground balls. So I can?t complain when that happens.?

Dan Wheeler started the sixth, retired the first batter he faced, then gave up a double to Gordon Beckham and a home run to Alejandro De Aza. Before leaving, he walked Brent Morel.

Rafael Perez replaced Wheeler and gave up an intentional walk and a three-run homer to A.J. Pierzynski, letting in a third run for Wheeler and adding two for himself, in only two-thirds of an inning.

The Tribe offense, dormant for four games, came alive with home runs by Travis Hafner and Shelley Duncan, but timely hits were nowhere to be seen.

Altogether, the Indians stranded 11 runners and were 1 for 11 with runners in scoring position.

?We didn?t pitch good enough or play good enough defense,? Acta said. ?Six runs should be enough.?
 
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buckeyemania11;2140405; said:
:lol: gotta love this headline

and it's sad, the stadium used to rock.....now it's a ghost town pretty much

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2012/04/12/few-fans-witness-indians-dismal-play.html
That's what happens when you field a shitty team devoid of stars. It's a vicious circle...Dolan won't spend money if the fans aren't filling the stadium, and the fans won't come out to watch a piss poor product. I'm legitimately concerned this franchise is about to sink into another 60s-early 90s funk. Unless they start drafting really well, I don't see how they don't.

We're looking at a ground up rebuild, and without any really tradeable pieces, it's gonna have to be done through scouting and the draft. And that will take a while.
 
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NFBuck;2140420; said:
That's what happens when you field a shitty team devoid of stars. It's a vicious circle...Dolan won't spend money if the fans aren't filling the stadium, and the fans won't come out to watch a piss poor product. I'm legitimately concerned this franchise is about to sink into another 60s-early 90s funk. Unless they start drafting really well, I don't see how they don't.

We're looking at a ground up rebuild, and without any really tradeable pieces, it's gonna have to be done through scouting and the draft. And that will take a while.

the margin for error is slim, but cleveland has some good pieces right now. if they use the money they'll save from sizemore and hafner's deals coming off the books to extend masterson and jiminez, and carrasco doesn't die, they can actually put together a solid starting rotation. bullpens are always bi-polar.

offensively, it's another story. you have santana, kipnis, and ascab for the foreseeable future. chisenhall is raking down in AAA right now. the problem is there are no outfield bats worth a damn to be found in the entire system. brantley is a serviceable LF batting 9th if you've got someone that can mash at another outfield spot, or at both DH and 1b.

if cleveland clears over $20 million from the books and doesn't make a real effort to improve the team, then they deserve everything they get.
 
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NFBuck;2140420; said:
That's what happens when you field a [Mark May]ty team devoid of stars. It's a vicious circle...Dolan won't spend money if the fans aren't filling the stadium, and the fans won't come out to watch a [censored] poor product. I'm legitimately concerned this franchise is about to sink into another 60s-early 90s funk. Unless they start drafting really well, I don't see how they don't.

We're looking at a ground up rebuild, and without any really tradeable pieces, it's gonna have to be done through scouting and the draft. And that will take a while.

It's almost better that we don't have tradeable pieces, because the last time we did we got Ubaldo and his baggage. Since we haven't exactly lit up the veteran-for-prospect trading recently either, maybe they can really build this team from the ground up. Santana is a good start, and if Chis and Kipnis pan out, at least they won't be so terrible. Pitching is a concern though.
 
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If, big if, Ubald-O can turn things around and become a legit #2, that would be HUGE. He's always had really good stuff, he's just become a bit of a headcase. I was at least encouraged by his first start...but we'll see if he can maintain. If he can, him and Masterson are a very good #1-#2. Hopefully Carrasco can bounce back. He was really good for about 6 weeks last year before getting hurt.

Smooth is good, but I'm not sold on AsCab being a consistent producer. He slumped down the stretch last year pretty badly and isn't off to a very good start. I think Kipnis will be pretty good, but he too is struggling. Chis can develop into a solid 3B, but I'm not sure he's a middle-of-the-order run producer you typically want at 3B. I can see him being a decent Brook Jacoby-type of 3B. Hopefully. It's frightening how little they have in the OF.

As for Damon...at least he's a warm body. Like I said, he can't be any worse than what they already have out there.
 
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I'd expect LaBusta to be back in the MLB hacking it up pretty soon

he's hitting .333 with 4 HR in the Clippers first 7 games

being the AAAA all star he is though....he will come up at hit .230 and strike out 3X more than he walks

It's frightening how little they have in the OF.

yep any OF prospects that may have some MLB impact are in A ball and years away from the majors....obviously they know this by reaching out to the likes of Bobby Abreu and Johnny Damon
 
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tsteele316;2140216; said:
i can't fathom how trading cc, lee, and victor set this team back years. if you're talking about strict return, perhaps. but you can't argue that the guys they got back weren't highly touted prospects. they just never quite panned out. however, the victor trade to boston should yield zero complaints.

Victor trade i will agree getting masterson has been great, but with the CC trade we have brantley and LaPorta and that trade was made years ago and here we are...so draw your own conclusions...lee trade we got carrasco and donald...draw your own conclusions on that also...we should of held our ground on the lee trade to get dominic brown...he could start in this team
 
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y0yoyoin;2140460; said:
Victor trade i will agree getting masterson has been great, but with the CC trade we have brantley and LaPorta and that trade was made years ago and here we are...so draw your own conclusions...lee trade we got carrasco and donald...draw your own conclusions on that also...we should of held our ground on the lee trade to get dominic brown...he could start in this team
There is zero indication that he would be any better than anybody on this roster, either. He's in the minors right now, and in parts of 2 seasons, spanning 276 plate appearances, he's run up the following line:

.236-.314-.382, 7 hr, 32 rbi, 13 2b, 1 3b, 5 sb, 30 bb, 59 so
And he's done it in a stacked Philly lineup.

Those kind of numbers would have us labeling him a bust as well. LaPorta has been more productive as a ML prospect. All these trades show is what a crap shoot it is projecting prospects to the ML level.
 
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NFBuck;2140469; said:
There is zero indication that he would be any better than anybody on this roster, either. He's in the minors right now, and in parts of 2 seasons, spanning 276 plate appearances, he's run up the following line:

.236-.314-.382, 7 hr, 32 rbi, 13 2b, 1 3b, 5 sb, 30 bb, 59 so
And he's done it in a stacked Philly lineup.

Those kind of numbers would have us labeling him a bust as well. LaPorta has been more productive as a ML prospect. All these trades show is what a crap shoot it is projecting prospects to the ML level.

i would take brown over shelly duncan regardless of his stats...ive seen him play and think he would fill in nicely in the tribe lineup..but thats here nor there since it never happened...besides we have johnny damon now...the future of our team is bright
 
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y0yoyoin;2140676; said:
i would take brown over shelly duncan regardless of his stats...ive seen him play and think he would fill in nicely in the tribe lineup..but thats here nor there since it never happened...besides we have johnny damon now...the future of our team is bright
Well, regardless, lets not pretend they missed out on some star player by not being bullish on Domonic Brown. If they guy was any good, or at least ML ready, he wouldn't be wallowing in Lehigh Valley right now. At this point, his ML production < LaBusta's ML production...and that says a lot.
 
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