Boise State, do they deserve a chance?

[milkman21]

College football postseason is a joke.

Then don't watch it.

The teams know the stakes ahead of time. If you want a shot at the title, you have to take some chances and schedule some big games during the season... and you have to win those games. It's a simple formula.

I have no sympathy for Boise State until they beat a *quality* schedule *and* then get left out of the NC picture (which wouldn't happen, anyway). Failure to schedule major opponents is simply failure to comply with the system.

In this regard, a team like Fresno State deserves much more respect than BSU, because they're not afraid of playing the big boys on a regular basis. They scheduled games with LSU and Oregon this year. Yes, they lost... but at least they played. Now let's say BSU played LSU and Oregon this season and still went undefeated. Do you really think they'd still be left out of the BCS Championship game? Not a chance in hell. Those kind of quality wins are exactly what gets you in the title game.

Simply put, BSU knows that their current "plan" will never work if they want an NC or a shot at it. They go through their joke of a schedule each year knowing full-well that it won't get them to the title game--even if they go undefeated. Their choice gives a textbook example of stupidity: knowing that the outcome will be negative and choosing to take that course of action anyway.

 

[Steve19]

And this is the most stupid thing about college football. It's not even about mid-major respect, it's about common sense. If a mid-major team in baketball has a great year, they not only make the tournament, they could get a #1 seed (see: St. Joe's). In every other sports (college and pro), if you go undefeated, you get a chance to play for the national championship.

It's not about strength of schedule or what their record would be. If you go undefeated, and only 1 other team goes undefeated, you deserve to play them for the title. If you do EVERYTHING you possibly can and win ALL of your games, you at least deserve to be in a playoff with a chance to win it all.

College football postseason is a joke.

By that logic, an undefeated Div III team should play Ohio State ahead of Florida. Boise State is undefeated precisely because of the standard of competition they faced. "Undefeated" has no meaning unless it is against a reasonable standard of competition. I think you saw that very clearly after the Huskies played Ohio State.

You refer to St Joseph's in the 2004 NCAA. During a nearly undefeated regular season, they beat a well-ranked Gonzaga, Boston College (who had beat ranked North Carolina State, Seton Hall (x2), Providence, and Notre Dame), and Xavier (to whom they lost their only game, when they replayed in the A-10 conference game and lost by 20 points).

So, St Joe's had a few good scalps and, if you remember, there was a lot of Cinderella sentiment. They even made it to the Elite 8 prior to losing.

St. Joe's did not get to play in the National Championship game!

And that is the point, we don't have a playoff system in basketall. We have a route that you can play yourself into it. St. Joe's got a #1 seed and they didn't embarrass the choosers by making it into the Elite 8. However, they didn't get into the NC game.

Boise State has no such credentials, no great wins, nothing to suggest that they belong in a national championship game. They were fortunate to beat Oklahoma. And, there is a huge difference between an Oklahoma and an Ohio State, Florida, or TSUN this year.

G-Force, we have all been through this before the Northern Illinois game and every year when we face the next "give us some respect team". I would have really liked to have been good enough to play for a Bowling Green or Miami of Ohio or a Boise State. I wasn't good enough. But that doesn't mean I have to be confused about the difference between the althletes and resources that a top five team can bring to bear against the Boise State's of the world. Put them in the Big Ten and they might not have played after Christmas. It's that simple and, no, undefeated on their schedule doesn't count. They don't deserve a shot and if they got one they would be highly embarrassed.

 

[Adam Locked]

Steve19: Great explanation, I agree with you 100 percent.

There's a difference between playing in the WAC and playing in the SEC or Big 10 and having to play games against Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, LSU, etc week in and week out. When you play in a conference like SEC or Big 10 there are no "easy weeks".

... When you play a one-shot Bowl game, anyone has a chance. Football isn't a seven game series, if it was you could probably guarantee that Oklahoma would beat them 9 times out of 10. Boise State has a great year, they're fun to watch, I like the team. But to think they're one of two best teams in the Nation is crazy. LSU, which has two losses, would mop them up and down the field.

 

[Adam Locked]

Just some more thoughts, after fully reading the whole thread:

1. Record in college football does not mean as much as it does in other sports. I think everyone here can agree that a Division I-AA team who goes undefeated, would probably go 4-8, or most likely have a losing record, in a mid major I-A conference. Why? College Football does NOT have parity. In sports like, NFL or the NBA, we can compare two records of two different teams and say the team with the better record is (usually) the better team. People make that mistake with college football. There are not 30 teams that you play at least twice a year in College Football like there is in other sports. There are 119 I-A teams and there is a MAJOR difference in parity between the #1 team and the #119 team. So looking at a team's record does not tell the whole story in CFB, that's why the common saying "It's all about WHO you play rings true". Boise State played an undefeated season, but like it has been posted numerous times in this thread, they did not face the kind of opposition that a team from a major conference faces week in and week out. Those teams have better athletes, more NFL players, and play in bigger stadiums. If a WAC team is able to go to the National Championship on their schedule and on an easy OOC schedule, then Ohio State should switch it's conference affiliation to the WAC so we can go undefeated every year and play in the NC game.

... I'm not trying to dog Boise State. They played easily the most entertaining game of the entire college football season (yes, I'll admit that ending was better than OSU/Michigan guys). Which brings me to my next point...

2. The game meant MORE to Boise State than it did to Oklahoma. If this was a playoff game, you would have to think Oklahoma would've been much more fired up. I mean, if you're an Oklahoma player, who had NC game aspirations at the beginning of the season, how do you feel playing in a bowl game against Boise State? A bit of a disappointment? In a one game, mean nothing, bowl game against a school like Boise State you can't possibly think they are as fired up about being there as much as Boise State was. This was the most important, meaningful game in their school history. And they played like it! What did this game mean to Oklahoma? "Don't lose to the little guy". Boise wanted this game to prove to the world that a mid-major could knock off a BCS conference team. I picked Boise before the game to win because of the simple fact, the game meant a lot more to them than it did Oklahoma. Similar to last year's West Virginia/Georgia game, the game simply meant more to the other team. Also, let's not forget. Boise won the game on two amazing trick plays in overtime. It's not like they rolled over Oklahoma by 14 points.


I hope that all made sense. Again, not trying to down play Boise's victory but it just seems clear to me that Boise doesn't deserve a chance because of two major reasons: 1) There's no parity in college football, so win/loss record is not as important and WHO you play 2) The game meant more to the team who had everything to gain from it.

 

[G-FORCE]

By that logic, an undefeated Div III team should play Ohio State ahead of Florida. Boise State is undefeated precisely because of the standard of competition they faced. "Undefeated" has no meaning unless it is against a reasonable standard of competition. I think you saw that very clearly after the Huskies played Ohio State.

St. Joe's did not get to play in the National Championship game!

You make many good arguments except for these. First of all, saying I am basically saying an undefeated Div III should get to play OSU is taking my comments and stretching them way out. Where have I said that? They play in different divisons. I'm not even close to saying that.

St. Joe's didn't get to play in the National Championship game, but they had just as much of a chance (if not more of a chance because they were a 1 seed) then anybody else.

Boise State is a really good football team. They would probably beat us by 3 or 4 touchdowns. When I made the comments I did before we played you, I expected our team to be much better then it was. We were at best a very, very average MAC team.

Let's take a look at Wisconsin's regular season schedule:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teamsched?teamId=275

@ Bowling Green
Western Illinois
San Diego State
Buffalo

That was who they scheduled out of conference. 4 cupcakes.

@ Michigan
@ Indiana
Northwestern
Minnesota (6-7, bowl team)
@ Purdue
Illinois
Penn State (9-4, bowl champ)
Iowa (6-7, bowl team)

Now, if they would have beat Michigan do you think they would be playing you in Glendale tomorrow? They would have beaten 2 winning teams, and been playing you in the National Title game. It's not even really about strength of schedule, it's that Boise State doesn't play in a BCS conference.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Boise State beat abunch of world beaters, but was their schedule that much worse.

OOC:
Sacramento State (cupcake)
Oregon State (10-4, bowl champ, Pac-10 team)
@ Wyoming (6-6)
@ Utah (8-5 bowl champ)

That's a helluva lot harder then Wisconsin's schedule.

Conference:
Hawaii (11-3, ranked [i think], bowl champ)
Louisiana Tech
@ New Mexica State
@ Idaho
Fresno State
San Jose State (9-4, bowl champ)
Utah State
@ Nevada (8-5, bowl team)

Would you agree Wisoncin would be playing in the National Championship game if they beat Michigan? Is their schedule that much, if any better then Boise State's?

 

[bkochmc]

I'm going to play devils advocate since I haven't made up my mind if I am in favor of a playoff or not...

Is it really fair:

*To make OSU beat Michigan again in order to win the NC?
*To make Michigan beat Wisconsin again in order to win the NC?
*To make Florida beat LSU again in order to win the NC?
*Give USC and LSU a chance at the NC, even though they have 2 losses already?

Why isn't it fair? I'm sure Capital was looking forward at getting another shot at Mt. Union the past two years in the Division III playoffs... then Mt. Union proved they were the better team by beating them TWICE each year.

Why should a quality team have to beat a quality opponent two separate times in order to win the title? Should a team with 2 losses be able to win the title over a top-tier team that had only one (e.g. a USC over an OSU)?That's not how college football works (rare exceptions notwithstanding), and frankly that's not the direction I want it to take.

The D-I Playoff Subdivison (D-IAA), D-II, and D-III have a different perspective than this... there has been many times where a 2 or 3 loss team won the national title... why should the major D-I teams be any different? On the contrary, 3/4 of college football works great with a playoff but the other 1/4 has their foot in too much money seriously consider a playoff.

Pretty much any way you slice it, creating a playoff of any more than 4 teams is going to require at least one rematch, and that's not fair to the team that wins the first time around. The more you convert to a playoff system, the college game is going to start looking like the JV NFL. The regular season will be all about "Clinch your playoff spot... rest your starters... the big games haven't started yet."

I don't want that.

Big difference between college and NFL: the college coaches still want to win their conference, not just get to the playoffs. Ohio State - Michigan would still be a big game every year since the Big10 title usually goes through those two teams... teams would be battling for home field advantage at the end of the year also and we all know how important that is in major college football. I see no problem with a 16-team playoff... each conference winner then I believe 5 at-large bids that way you have each conference represented (as the other divisions do) and are able to throw in 5 other elite teams.

 

[gbearbuck]

I voted no... If they had a couple of big wins on their out of conference schedule then I would vote yes. If you are a mid major, in order to have a legit claim I think you need two big wins in your out of conference games.

To run through a weak conference and beat one "legit" team is not enough to have a right to play for the NC.

 

[G-FORCE]

I voted no... If they had a couple of big wins on their out of conference schedule then I would vote yes. If you are a mid major, in order to have a legit claim I think you need two big wins in your out of conference games.

To run through a weak conference and beat one "legit" team is not enough to have a right to play for the NC.

They played 5 bowl teams, and 4 of them won their bowls. How is that beating one "legit" team.

 

[Adam Locked]

Playing a "bowl team" or a "bowl champ" is a very misleading statement. There are so many bowl games being played that you can be a "bowl team" on a .500 record. And secondly, Hawaii who was #2 in their conference beat Arizona State who is #6 in the Pac-10, that really isn't saying much. These bowl match ups in these smaller bowls favor the smaller conferences because it pits the #1 or #2 in the small conference against #5 or #6 in a major conference, who arguably doesn't even deserve to be there. The way these smaller bowls are setup is to make the games entertaining (which they are) by trying to put the two teams up to the same level of competition. The best example is the Liberty Bowl which had the Conference USA Champion versus the #5 team in the SEC East! And South Carolina... still won.

 

[Adam Locked]

Would you agree Wisoncin would be playing in the National Championship game if they beat Michigan? Is their schedule that much, if any better then Boise State's?

I can agree, that there would be some people who want want Wisconsin in the NC game had they beaten Michigan, but I personally wouldn't. I would think it'd be obvious to me and many other football minded people who watch CFB and know that record doesn't mean everything, would know that a one loss Florida or SEC team is better than Wisconsin and their cupcake schedule.

 

[Steve19]

They played 5 bowl teams, and 4 of them won their bowls. How is that beating one "legit" team.

What Robert Smith said...LINK

 

[Steve19]

GForce, I will put your comments to which I am responding in italics, in order to make this post tenable..

First of all, saying I am basically saying an undefeated Div III should get to play OSU is taking my comments and stretching them way out. Where have I said that? They play in different divisons. I'm not even close to saying that.

Yes, you are. You said no matter who a team plays, if they are undefeated, they should play for the NC. There is huge variation within Div I as well as across the divisions. Boise State played a cupcake schedule, throughout

I demonstrated this in my earlier post in this thread:

Link to Boise State schedule and results

DateOpponentWLResultPFPANote
Mon 01/01/07vs Oklahoma112W4342playoff | Glendale AZ | Fiesta Bowl
Sat 11/25/06 at Nevada84W387 #52
Sat 11/18/06 Utah St111W4910 #169
Sat 11/11/06 at San Jose St84W2320 #69
Wed 11/01/06 Fresno St48W4521 #105
Sat 10/21/06 at Idaho48W4226 #136
Sun 10/15/06 at New Mexico St48W4028 #128
Sat 10/07/06 Louisiana Tech310W5514 #158
Sat 09/30/06 at Utah75W363 #58
Sat 09/23/06 Hawaii103W4134 #28
Sat 09/16/06 at Wyoming66W1710 #78
Thu 09/07/06 Oregon St94W4214 #18
Thu 08/31/06 CS Sacramento47W450 #109

St. Joe's didn't get to play in the National Championship game, but they had just as much of a chance (if not more of a chance because they were a 1 seed) then anybody else.

So did Boise State. They blew that chance when they scheduled the cupcakes they did. With that conference schedule, their only chance is to play three top 25 teams in their OOC schedule. They played one ranked team (#25 Oregon State).

Let's take a look at Wisconsin's regular season schedule:
...snip...
@ Bowling Green
Western Illinois
San Diego State
Buffalo

That was who they scheduled out of conference. 4 cupcakes.

@ Michigan
@ Indiana
Northwestern
Minnesota (6-7, bowl team)
@ Purdue
Illinois
Penn State (9-4, bowl champ)
Iowa (6-7, bowl team)


Now, if they would have beat Michigan do you think they would be playing you in Glendale tomorrow? They would have beaten 2 winning teams, and been playing you in the National Title game. It's not even really about strength of schedule, it's that Boise State doesn't play in a BCS conference.

No, it's about SOS. I don't think Wisconsin would not have been playing Ohio State in the BCS game, even if they had beaten TSUN. Why? Precisely because of the OOC schedule you highlight. I think Florida and USC would have been ahead of them.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Boise State beat abunch of world beaters, but was their schedule that much worse.

Wisconsin's SOS was better but neither schedule was tough enough to justify the NC game in my opinion. Wisconsin also played only one top 25 team (#3 TSUN) and lost. Howerver, they played four games against teams ranked in the Sagarin top 50. Boise State played two (see above). Wisconsin played 7 games against top 100 Sagarin teams. Boise State played 5.

We would agree that Boise State played a tougher OOC schedule, but please, let's not throw words around like "bowl team" and "bowl champ" when there are so many bowls that those terms are meaningless anymore. The fact is that, with the exception of Oregon State, none of the OOC teams Boise State played objectively appears to be better than lowly Purdue.

So, I think perhaps you have built a straw man (i.e., why support Wisconsin when you wouldn't support Boise State for the NC game). I wouldn't support either and I don't think the poll voters would have either if they had been forced to make that choice.

I agree with Robert Smith's comments (see the link in the earlier post). Boise State is a good team and, for a week or two, Boise State might hang with some of the big boys of Oklahoma's strength. But I don't think that they would hang with the top guys or even Oklahoma week in and week out and be able to take the physical punishment.

So, again, I don't think that a case can be made to give Boise State a shot at the NC. If they want it, then they have to earn it the same way all of the top teams do: in the trenches against the big boys.

 

[BayBuck]

They played 5 bowl teams, and 4 of them won their bowls. How is that beating one "legit" team.

You do realize there are like 33 bowls now? Not everyone who wins a crappy bowl game over a 50-some-ranked team is "legit". For instance, you claim Utah as a quality non-conf win for Boise, when all they did was beat TULSA in the ARMED FORCES BOWL.

 

[G-FORCE]

You do realize there are like 33 bowls now? Not everyone who wins a crappy bowl game over a 50-some-ranked team is "legit". For instance, you claim Utah as a quality non-conf win for Boise, when all they did was beat TULSA in the ARMED FORCES BOWL.

I never said it was a great or "quality" win, my point was that if Wisconsin would have beat Michigan and went undefeated they would be playing tonight. It's not even about SOS, it's about what conference you play in. That's bull.

 

[G-FORCE]

GForce, I will put your comments to which I am responding in italics, in order to make this post tenable..

First of all, saying I am basically saying an undefeated Div III should get to play OSU is taking my comments and stretching them way out. Where have I said that? They play in different divisons. I'm not even close to saying that.

Yes, you are. You said no matter who a team plays, if they are undefeated, they should play for the NC. There is huge variation within Div I as well as across the divisions. Boise State played a cupcake schedule, throughout

I demonstrated this in my earlier post in this thread:

Link to Boise State schedule and results

DateOpponentWLResultPFPANote
Mon 01/01/07vs Oklahoma112W4342playoff | Glendale AZ | Fiesta Bowl
Sat 11/25/06 at Nevada84W387 #52
Sat 11/18/06 Utah St111W4910 #169
Sat 11/11/06 at San Jose St84W2320 #69
Wed 11/01/06 Fresno St48W4521 #105
Sat 10/21/06 at Idaho48W4226 #136
Sun 10/15/06 at New Mexico St48W4028 #128
Sat 10/07/06 Louisiana Tech310W5514 #158
Sat 09/30/06 at Utah75W363 #58
Sat 09/23/06 Hawaii103W4134 #28
Sat 09/16/06 at Wyoming66W1710 #78
Thu 09/07/06 Oregon St94W4214 #18
Thu 08/31/06 CS Sacramento47W450 #109

St. Joe's didn't get to play in the National Championship game, but they had just as much of a chance (if not more of a chance because they were a 1 seed) then anybody else.

So did Boise State. They blew that chance when they scheduled the cupcakes they did. With that conference schedule, their only chance is to play three top 25 teams in their OOC schedule. They played one ranked team (#25 Oregon State).

Let's take a look at Wisconsin's regular season schedule:
...snip...
@ Bowling Green
Western Illinois
San Diego State
Buffalo

That was who they scheduled out of conference. 4 cupcakes.

@ Michigan
@ Indiana
Northwestern
Minnesota (6-7, bowl team)
@ Purdue
Illinois
Penn State (9-4, bowl champ)
Iowa (6-7, bowl team)


Now, if they would have beat Michigan do you think they would be playing you in Glendale tomorrow? They would have beaten 2 winning teams, and been playing you in the National Title game. It's not even really about strength of schedule, it's that Boise State doesn't play in a BCS conference.

No, it's about SOS. I don't think Wisconsin would not have been playing Ohio State in the BCS game, even if they had beaten TSUN. Why? Precisely because of the OOC schedule you highlight. I think Florida and USC would have been ahead of them.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Boise State beat abunch of world beaters, but was their schedule that much worse.

Wisconsin's SOS was better but neither schedule was tough enough to justify the NC game in my opinion. Wisconsin also played only one top 25 team (#3 TSUN) and lost. Howerver, they played four games against teams ranked in the Sagarin top 50. Boise State played two (see above). Wisconsin played 7 games against top 100 Sagarin teams. Boise State played 5.

We would agree that Boise State played a tougher OOC schedule, but please, let's not throw words around like "bowl team" and "bowl champ" when there are so many bowls that those terms are meaningless anymore. The fact is that, with the exception of Oregon State, none of the OOC teams Boise State played objectively appears to be better than lowly Purdue.

So, I think perhaps you have built a straw man (i.e., why support Wisconsin when you wouldn't support Boise State for the NC game). I wouldn't support either and I don't think the poll voters would have either if they had been forced to make that choice.

I agree with Robert Smith's comments (see the link in the earlier post). Boise State is a good team and, for a week or two, Boise State might hang with some of the big boys of Oklahoma's strength. But I don't think that they would hang with the top guys or even Oklahoma week in and week out and be able to take the physical punishment.

So, again, I don't think that a case can be made to give Boise State a shot at the NC. If they want it, then they have to earn it the same way all of the top teams do: in the trenches against the big boys.

You make some good points, and I am just going to agree to disagree. Me and you (and maybe the computers) may know Wisconsin wouldn't have belonged in the N.C. game, but I am very confident that they would have been.

I do know that it is very difficult for good mid-majors to schedule. Alot of the times it is either an extreme good team (@ Ohio State) or extreme bad team (Temple, Indiana State). I am actually surprised Boise State got Oregon State at home. Since 2003, NIU hasn't been able to get a BCS to come to DeKalb. The closes we get is Iowa next year at Solider Field. Now, I am not saying that should be an argument for Boise State, just pointing it out.

This argument will go away if (and hopefully) Ohio State wins.
Go Buckeyes!