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DaytonBuck;668407; said:
If Paterno and Bowden only have 2 NC's I think that Bo in his era show's how hard it is to to win a NC. I can see the reason for doubt but I think coachs of his era had a smaller margin of error.


yeah it's hard, but they at least won one, and they won two. Dean Smith "only" won 3 in 30 years, but that's still pretty good. Zero in 21 despite always being in position to win one is just plain bad. And not worthy of a "one of the greatest coaches ever" title.

I
 
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HailToMichigan;668632; said:
It's not like Bo sat back after his career was over and decided that since he didn't win the Rose Bowl enough, his goal was instead to beat OSU. It was his mantra from Day 1. I know you don't think beating OSU is as easy as just showing up to work. Ever since lord knows when, they've been an elite team, and having a winning record against them is a hell of an accomplishment (11-9-1 was Bo's.) When did OSU ever have a down stretch during Bo's tenure? If he had a similar Rose Bowl record, even at 5-5, nobody would be knocking it. I'm pretty surprised that an OSU fan would look at an 11-9-1 record against them and call that nothing.

Again, I'm not knocking Bo. I'm not knocking is record against Ohio State. A winning record against Ohio State over any 10 or more-year span is nothing to sneeze at. I beleive that Bo was a great coach, and a great person. I'm just saying that no one (Bo, Woody, you, me, anyone) can set forth his own criteria for success - especially in a public career like college football. I have no doubt that that was not his only criterion for success. I'm sure that he wanted to win every single game - Ohio State or not - Rose Bowl or not. I'm also sure that he wanted every single one of his athletes to do well in school and to graduate and to become successful in whatever they did with their lives.

My point is that your argument sounds like this to me: "Bo didn't care about winning Rose Bowls, so he didn't even try."

In today's day and age, unfortunately, these people are judged by championships. If a coach didn't win any national championships, in the eyes of many, it's hard to compare him to another coach who did win a national championship.
 
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Zurp;668663; said:
In today's day and age, unfortunately, these people are judged by championships. If a coach didn't win any national championships, in the eyes of many, it's hard to compare him to another coach who did win a national championship.


In other words, Paul Brown, Woody, and Jim Tressel run circles around the "best" scUM has to offer.
 
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The KSB;668712; said:
You're shitting me, right? The only way he has 6 NC's is if you use the Alabama method of counting them.

1901-04, 1918, 1923

Sure, they're all "mythical" back in those days, and there were some splits with the Princeton/Penns of the early CFB world, but Yost was definitely a multiple-title coach.
 
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Far be it from me to defend anything Michigan, but the bowl record argument does not hold water. Woody was 5-6 in bowl games and has an even 4-4 record in the Rose Bowl.

I think the original question was would Bo be as revered as an OSU coach as at scUM. That we can answer definitively as "no." Earle Bruce proves that. Earl wasn't Woody just like Bo wasn't Woody.

However, that does not diminish what he accomplished there. Bo took that team off the scrap heap and built it back to a national powerhouse. He helped to make The Game to be The Game as much as Woody did. National Championships aside, Bo is among the 10 best coaches of the post-WWII to pre-BCS time period. He finished in the AP top 10 in all of his first 10 seasons and only missed the AP top 20 once (1982) in his career. That is absolutely outstanding and certainly better than what Cooper was able to accomplish at tOSU.

Bo misses being a legend like Bear, Joe Pa, and Woody because of the lack of NCs. But that is the only thing he is missing from his resume.
 
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MuckFich06;668721; said:
Far be it from me to defend anything Michigan, but the bowl record argument does not hold water.
Why is that? If we can throw part of someone's resume out then make sure to erase Coop's 2-10-1 against UM. Change things a little? Amazing at how people pick and choose what should or shouldn't count when discussing the "greatness" of someone.
 
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MuckFich06;668721; said:
Far be it from me to defend anything Michigan, but the bowl record argument does not hold water. Woody was 5-6 in bowl games and has an even 4-4 record in the Rose Bowl.

I think the original question was would Bo be as revered as an OSU coach as at scUM. That we can answer definitively as "no." Earle Bruce proves that. Earl wasn't Woody just like Bo wasn't Woody.

However, that does not diminish what he accomplished there. Bo took that team off the scrap heap and built it back to a national powerhouse. He helped to make The Game to be The Game as much as Woody did. National Championships aside, Bo is among the 10 best coaches of the post-WWII to pre-BCS time period. He finished in the AP top 10 in all of his first 10 seasons and only missed the AP top 20 once (1982) in his career. That is absolutely outstanding and certainly better than what Cooper was able to accomplish at tOSU.

Bo misses being a legend like Bear, Joe Pa, and Woody because of the lack of NCs. But that is the only thing he is missing from his resume.

Sorry but this is just not right. If JT had won the NC in 2002, but lost to everyone else in bowls (SC, Kansas State, Oklahoma State and especially Notre Dame last year) you don't think people would be a little less high on him than they are now? Hogwash. Bowl games and rivalry games are "the big games" and a poor record in either is a significant mark against a coach. One of the big reasons that JT is the elite coach he is right now is because he not only beat Miami but also ND and is 3-0 in BCS bowls and 4-1 in bowls overall.
 
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Let me clarify. I don't think it is his bowl record that keeps him out of the pantheon of the truly great college coaches. If he had that same bowl record with 2 NCs, he would be in that pantheon. There are multiple arguments going on in this thread and addressing one can confuse another.

1. Would Bo with that same record be as revered at tOSU? No, because he didn't win a NC like Tress or Woody.

2. Does the bowl record make a difference? Yes. But I don't think it is the reason he would not be as revered. If he had the same record, but won 2 NCs; then he would be as revered. I think it is great that tOSU beat OK State and K State but winning those games is not nearly as big a part of Tress's rep as winning a second NC in 4 years will be.

If tsun regroups next year and Llloyd pulls off a NC, do you not think he will be revered in a much greater way... even if they lose a bowl this year?

3. Does Bo belong in the upper pantheon of great coaches of his era? No, no NC and poor bowl record. I would still say he is a top 10 coach of his era put not on par with the truly great ones. Again, a NC or two could have trumped the poor bowl record.
 
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MuckFich06;668823; said:
Let me clarify. I don't think it is his bowl record that keeps him out of the pantheon of the truly great college coaches. If he had that same bowl record with 2 NCs, he would be in that pantheon. There are multiple arguments going on in this thread and addressing one can confuse another.

1. Would Bo with that same record be as revered at tOSU? No, because he didn't win a NC like Tress or Woody.

2. Does the bowl record make a difference? Yes. But I don't think it is the reason he would not be as revered. If he had the same record, but won 2 NCs; then he would be as revered. I think it is great that tOSU beat OK State and K State but winning those games is not nearly as big a part of Tress's rep as winning a second NC in 4 years will be.

If tsun regroups next year and Llloyd pulls off a NC, do you not think he will be revered in a much greater way... even if they lose a bowl this year?

3. Does Bo belong in the upper pantheon of great coaches of his era? No, no NC and poor bowl record. I would still say he is a top 10 coach of his era put not on par with the truly great ones. Again, a NC or two could have trumped the poor bowl record.
ok that I agree with.
 
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If you take the Ten Year War as perhaps the greatest period of any college football rivalry, and look at how evenly matched the two teams were through that period, then you have to give Bo his due.

His lack of national titles had one primary reason: Wayne Woodrow Hayes. Woody's lack of titles through that same period had one primary reason: Glenn "Bo" Schembechler. Were their teams beat up and undermotivated for bowl games through that era? I'm not sure about that argument. What the record does generally show, however, is that the underdog team often won "The Game", and that many of Woody's and Bo's best teams sat at home on New Year's Day.

Whether or not you call him one of the all-time greats, the fact is that he and his teams ruined several potential Ohio State title runs, and we ruined several of theirs. Maybe the best way to rank him is as one of the very best Big Ten coaches -- behind Woody, but definitely ahead of guys like Alvarez, Fry, and Cooper. Obviously, he's big enough to Michigan to have their facilities named after him. In my mind, he's just behind a group that includes modern-era coaches like Bryant, Hayes, Paterno, Bowden, Osborne...maybe somewhere around Darryl Royal?

It's hard in this discussion to compare to old timers like Stagg, Yost, Heisman, etc. so let's leave those out. How does he compare to his contemporaries? Was he the equal of Hayes, Bryant, Bowden, Osborne and Paterno? I don't think so, but he was competitive with them in their time.

To me, the argument that he's one of the very best coaches of his generation is a no-brainer. Clearly, even without the championships he was. His teams were talented, played hard, and were clean. The one stain on his legacy is Voyd. :wink:
 
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Tibor and Muckfich06 have valid points. B.S. is iconic in weasel-land, and rightly so. His record, even without NCs is respected by most ardent college football fans. A big part of Bo was his commanding presence, his eternal optimism about the weasels and his 24/7 dedication to the program.

No NCs? Well, ok, if that's the ultimate measure for "one of the greatest." If we vote on "a great college football coach", Bo would make the cut with ease.
 
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bodontknowchampionships.jpg


bo is a great coach no doubt. the crap about him not wanting to win the rose bowl or national championships is utter bullshit though.
 
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i think that Bo was a very good coach, but facts are if you dont have a good bowl record, and you dont have any NC's then you just can't be called "greatest" - granted he can be called one of Michigan's greatest coaches, but he isn't in the top 5 list for greatest college football coaches
 
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