Big Ten and other Conference Expansion

[Gatorubet]

first this.

max is absolutely right. texas is much more a western state than a southern state. far east texas, especially bordering louisiana, may well be southern in nature, but way more than most of the state is not at all southern in nature. it's western.

that said, a lot of early texas was settled by southerners, but that's true all the way to california.

texas did get caught up in the confederacy--i have no clue how that happened--but a great many were opposed to it.

some years ago i worked a project in nashville and lived down near franklin, some twenty miles south. late in the war there was a battle in and around franklin, and many confederate dead were buried on the grounds of a nearby plantation next to the family graveyard.

the numbers were so great that mass graves were necessary. in true southern style the dead were partitioned by state and buried in separate mass graves along a path which led up the hill to the family site at the hilltop. each state had a stone marker telling the state name and how many dead were there. small rectangular stone stakes were pushed into the ground in a grid over the mass grave, and each stone stood for one person. sometimes a family which knew that a relative was buried somewhere in one of those big graves etched the initials of the deceased into the flat top of one of the stakes. often next to one of the initialed stakes stood a little flag. i assumed it had been left by a relative.

then at the larger stone, the state stone, there would be a little collection of flags. mementos left by persons from that state, i would assume.

going up the hill i passed one state on the left and another on the right all the way up, the states with the least dead first and the two with most dead up at the top, next to the family plots. texas and tennessee had the most dead.

of course, you know the little flags were the confederate battle flag, the 'stars and bars' until . . .


. . . you got to the top. on the left--tennessee--they were the stars and bars, and on the right--texas--they were the lone star flag.

that tells you what you need to know about that.

The Confederate Battle Flag is not the "Stars and Bars".

Freaking yankees...

Texans were Confederates. That's like saying that folks in Maine weren't Union because they were "New Englanders"...

Now, given the choice, Texans will chose the Lone Star Flag only because they like that one, never having lost a war with it. They have that "We were a Republic thing" going for them, and they are far too stupid, by nature, to know about the Republic of West Florida.

Or even worse, they think that the Republic of West Florida was in Florida.

The Texans think enough about the WBTS to put up a historical marker commemorating the last Confederate Victory of the Woe-ah. :p

 

[Woody1968]

glenn, thank you for your story. I was not trying to imply that Texans are a bunch of racists, I have met more racists in Ohio than anywhere else. My point is that people have done a lot in the last 30 or so years to try and deny that Texas, particularly East Texas is in the south. That's simply revisionist history. The truth is, there has been a historically anti-northern sentiment in Texas, which is, for me, the epitome of a southern state. That's not neccessarily good or bad, but it is history. Of course, there are many places in Texas, and in many ways, it has its own culture, much like Louisiana has its own culture, but is still part of the south. I particularly liked San Antonio when I passed through there many years ago. I did not care much for Houston or Dallas. I have never been to Austin, but from what I understand, it is a pretty cosmopolitan town.

 

[glenn]

glenn, thank you for your story. I was not trying to imply that Texans are a bunch of racists, I have met more racists in Ohio than anywhere else. My point is that people have done a lot in the last 30 or so years to try and deny that Texas, particularly East Texas is in the south. That's simply revisionist history. The truth is, there has been a historically anti-northern sentiment in Texas, which is, for me, the epitome of a southern state. That's not neccessarily good or bad, but it is history. Of course, there are many places in Texas, and in many ways, it has its own culture, much like Louisiana has its own culture, but is still part of the south. I particularly liked San Antonio when I passed through there many years ago. I did not care much for Houston or Dallas. I have never been to Austin, but from what I understand, it is a pretty cosmopolitan town.

you and i see houston and dallas the same way, woody. i like san antonio, too, but driving in that town drives me crazy, and i don't have that far to go. s.a. was laid out on goat trails, i think. nice town, though. i like ft worth, too, but austin is the jewel of the state in many ways.

regarding southernness, i might concede east texas, particularly far east texas, but texas is a very large state, and what part of it is really very 'southern' is a pretty small fraction. as a whole, texas is much more a western--or southwestern, if you really must--state.

interesting what you say about racists in ohio. someone told me something similar about indiana. given my experience in connecticut (not really an ugly experience), i am prepared to believe.

i have found oklahoma and kansas to be pretty bad at least as far as attitude. there aren't enough people--except native americans--in those two states who aren't white anglo-saxon prostestants to tell whether it really is a problem.

hey, i'm trying to upload that pic of ernie davis' headstone to a thing called album here and it won't load the pic. the physical size and memory size is small like it says. won't work. any ideas?

 

[Steve19]

My experience was that Texans have a "Southern identity" vs. "Western identity". They were passionate members of the confederacy but a significant minority were against secession and the state was virtually an unsettled frontier state at the time, outside the major cities.

I guess what I wonder about is their academic and sports identity, which I think is very close to the Big Ten.

 

[glenn]

My experience was that Texans have a "Southern identity" vs. "Western identity". They were passionate members of the confederacy but a significant minority were against secession and the state was virtually an unsettled frontier state at the time, outside the major cities.

I guess what I wonder about is their academic and sports identity, which I think is very close to the Big Ten.

that's interesting what you say, steve. growing up in west texas i didn't get that impression. i think my anecdote about the confederate cemetery says quite a lot. since most of my years in texas were in west texas and in austin, i may have a skewed impression. texas is like the elephant in the blind men and elephant tale. there's a lot of texas and one characterization cannot possibly paint a representative picture.

i know where i grew up we thought of the confederacy almost not at all. what little commentary there was was pretty much 'hooray for us' stuff. in nashville there were reminders all over the place. my wife, daughter, and i visited an old homestead where horse racing stables still echo the era before horse racing moved to kentucky. they had a little movie out in one of the ante-rooms of the big barn and we partook. after a couple of minutes i walked out and refused to watch the rest of the movie. it characterized union soldiers as dopey and cowardly. another time i quit a walking tour of a battle site for similar reason. i'm sure it exists somewhere, but in all my years in texas, i've never seen anything remotely similar.

a word about the historical sign in an earlier post. texas commemorates history period. if something of historic note happened somewhere, texas puts a marker there to make you aware. it neither approves or disapproves of anything.

i say these things simply because those of you who have never spent much time in texas may not realize the nature of the state. in my living around the nation, i've come across many, many people who would be surprised if they lived there a while. that happened for me in new york. my expectation based on years of hearing things about new york was shockingly unlike my experience there. i found new yorkers on long island and in the city to be very warm, approachable people in general who live brusque, fast-paced lives. new england was incredibly different in the sense that new york embraces its residents wherever they are from but new englanders do not. my daughter and i spoke with a lady guide at a shaker site in massachusetts who told us she was born and raised there, but since her parents had not been born and raised there, she grew up an outsider.

another word about new york that might give some insight into some people's opinions about texas. when my daughter came up i took her around to see much of long island/nyc/new england. she bought an 'i heart ny' shirt from a vendor outside the met art museum. he was curious about our accents and we told him our situation. he asked whether we liked ny. very much, we said. he said the reason we liked it was we came with the right attitude. in his position he interacts with lots of people from lots of places. he said if you come to new york looking for a bad time you will find one.

 

[Muck]

It isn't about racism. Texas is most definately a southern state, in fact, it was one of the most southern states in the union until north easterners and midwesterners started settling there in the late 70s. Even then, most of them were met with "Yankee, go home," and were harrassed by the police departments in Houston and other east texas towns where they went to look for work after many of the steel and other industrial plants closed up here.

Texan is a cultural identity unto itself. There is a VERY big difference between how the citizens of the former Republic of Texas view themselves and those from the land of Dixie.

I've had a cop in Waco tell me "we don't like yer kind down here"...it's still a long way from my former inlaws in Alabam.

 

[glenn]

Texan is a cultural identity unto itself. There is a VERY big difference between how the citizens of the former Republic of Texas view themselves and those from the land of Dixie.

I've had a cop in Waco tell me "we don't like yer kind down here"...it's still a long way from my former inlaws in Alabam.

two important words in what you said, muck. 'cop' and 'waco.' a lot of texans were not surprised that the branch davidians felt ok there.

most racist person i've encountered in MANY years was a new york cop. go figure.

edit: another thing. you hit it hard. how we view ourselves is very different from those of the south, and how persons from elsewhere view us may be very different from how we see ourselves. also, someone from a different clime may elicit a behavior from a texan who would never think to show that to me. a big difference between southerners and texans is that southerners tend to wear their opinions about all that on their sleeves. texans might think about it three times a year.

 

[glenn]

ok, my best-guessed guest responses:

1) If Texas accepts, would they do so only if they were the only new team to join the conference?

like i say, i'm guessing here, but i would be surprised if texas had any concerns that way. the talk on the street is that texas would like to establish some distance wrt the other big 12 schools, but i don't expect coming along with some other program(s) would be an issue.


2) If Texas accepts, would they try to bring along any other Big 12 members (or any other school for that matter)?

here again, my suspicion is that they would not. texas and a&m cooperate quite a bit on some things, but i wouldn't be surprised if we felt a&m in the big ten might not be a good idea. related question: i don't know if a&m would want to give that a try. gut feel says they would be much more comfortable in the sec. no idea what they think. also, the ags' $ problems may severely impact how far they would feel comfortable to travel.


3) If Texas accepts only as part of a "package deal" with other schools, which schools would be acceptable to the Big Ten? Which schools would be deal killers?

not my end of the stick.


4) If Texas accepts, would they try to prevent any other Big 12 members from joining the Big Ten? In other words, what kind of "bad blood" is there between Texas and the rest of the Big 12, and is that "bad blood" limited to certain schools or does it cover the entire conference?

i don't think texas has a bad relationship with most of the big 12 schools. e.g., my guess is that they would be perfectly comfortable with missouri coming along. i don't think texas was too keen on the kansas coach, but i'm guessing kansas wasn't too keen on him either. probably the only gripe with ukan would be another mouth to feed since it wouldn't be bringing a large viewing audience. i'm betting mizzou would pay its own way.

one name i never hear about is colorado to the big ten. i'm guessing that isn't viable for some reason.

i suspect the brain trust in austin would have a dim view of several b-12 programs that have exhibited troublesome behaviors in the past and several that wouldn't be natural fits some way or other or else would be an obvious drain on the economic side of things. my guess is that the entire conference other than missouri and maybe colorado gets tarred with one of those brushes. wild guesses, though. i'm prepared to believe anything.

i don't remember saying anything about tech vs kansas. would someone remind me?


5) If Texas accepts and is neutral on the issue of additional teams, would the Big Ten try to target other Big 12 members such as Missouri, or would the conference be happy with twelve members?

see 3) above.


6) If the Big Ten lands Texas, would they use this as leverage to try to get Notre Dame to join as well? Or would the conference tell the Domers to take a permanent hike?

i know what i think would be right.


7) If Texas does not accept, should the Big Ten target a "lesser" school such as Missouri, or just forgo expansion for the time being?

hope it doesn't come to that.


8) Can anyone make a credible argument that Texas is not the best choice?

i like to think i can do most anything, but i throw in the towel here.


9) Can anyone make a credible argument that expansion is a bad idea?

ich nicht. not in today's reality.


10) Would the Big Ten care if their poaching a team from another conference would cause that conference to collapse?

i'm sure the big ten is concerned about anything that might hurt college football, but actually i don't think anybody down here thinks that would deep six the big 12. the splintering scenario really regards texas and maybe colorado if mighty mo were to leave. the big 12 would likely take a major hit, but no reason to believe it couldn't continue on, though possibly in a reduced state. depending on who they could find to fill out the dance card, the conference might need to depend more on ooc games to generate the level of national interest it presently enjoys.

probably the worrisome thing for a reconstituted big 12 is not the present landscape but what may be over the horizon and pawing the dirt.

 

[MaxBuck]

It isn't about racism. Texas is most definately a southern state...

Have you ever lived there?

My kid spent four years living in Tejas, and she was born in the deep South and lived there for the first 10 years of her life. Take it from her: Tejas is not "a Southern state." Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana (except for NOLA, which is a culture unto itself) -- those states have much commonality of attitude and culture. And they're none of them in the least like Tejas.

 

[MaxBuck]

I've had a cop in Waco tell me "we don't like yer kind down here"...

Well, we don't like "your kind" up here, either, so I'm not sure what this anecdote proves.

J/K!

 

[Cornerback6]

I live in Texas now and I'm not going to lie, it feels a HELLUVA lot like Ohio. Spent plenty of time in both places, so I think my assessment is somewhat fair. Of course there are pockets of cultural extremity, but for the most part, they're about the same. Texas can feel very mid-western in my opinion.

 

[glenn]

you know, max, the funny thing about what you said is what you didn't say. you didn't say 'florida'. florida is deep in the south and was part of the confederacy and almost no one ever considers that. isn't that strange? some want badly to think that texas is fundamentally a part of the south and it isn't, but florida, which is also not very southern in nature gets a pass. was ist los? a sliver of texas is marginally close enough to the south to have some consequence, but florida is deep, deep in the south and you can't drive from florida to anywhere else without passing through the deep southern states or getting very wet.

good point about the crescent city. there's louser-land and then there's new orleans. i'm sure there's illinois and then there's chicago, colorado/denver, upstate ny/nyc, but there is incredible difference between the big easy and the rest of that state. i don't know much about red-stick. haven't spent any time to speak of there. what with lsu there, i don't know if it is more nola-like or if it is more louisiana-like.

i think muck's anecdote simply points out that elements in the state, like irrelevants everywhere, don't like outsiders. that guy probably wouldn't like it if you were from the far west. or a different nation. or a different part of texas. at home he probably doesn't like the people in the next block.

 

[glenn]

I live in Texas now and I'm not going to lie, it feels a HELLUVA lot like Ohio. Spent plenty of time in both places, so I think my assessment is somewhat fair. Of course there are pockets of cultural extremity, but for the most part, they're about the same. Texas can feel very mid-western in my opinion.

thank you, cb6. well said. you have lived what i am talking about.

odd thing. some worry a little bit about the cultural fit of texas wrt the rest of the big ten. i'm going to bet a bucket that texas--particularly austin and those who did their matriculating in austin--fits with the brunt of the big ten much more comfortably than does a true rural state like iowa.

 

[Woody1968]

Have you ever lived there?

My kid spent four years living in Tejas, and she was born in the deep South and lived there for the first 10 years of her life. Take it from her: Tejas is not "a Southern state." Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana (except for NOLA, which is a culture unto itself) -- those states have much commonality of attitude and culture. And they're none of them in the least like Tejas.

I notice you do not include Virginia, which is most definately a Southern state, not to mention the capital of the confederacy. This is what I mean about revisionist history. Texas is a pretty big place, but there is a reason that the stadium in Dallas is the "Cotton" Bowl and not the Corn Bowl.

 

[Buckeye Maniac]

I notice you do not include Virginia, which is most definately a Southern state, not to mention the capital of the confederacy. This is what I mean about revisionist history. Texas is a pretty big place, but there is a reason that the stadium in Dallas is the "Cotton" Bowl and not the Corn Bowl.

The fact that they grow cotton instead of corn has nothing to do with their culture.