BCS predictions/discussion/Knock Em' Off

[Mike80]

Picking Ohio St. to win a game, especially considering they were ranked #2 in the nation, isn't exactly what I call putting your neck on the line. FYI, I didn't say not picking Ohio St. to win a game or not campaigning for them to go to the NC game means he's a traitor or whatever it is you seem to think I meant. I just don't like how inconsistent he is with what he says/believes and he is rarely one to stray from the pack and say something people might not like or agree with in regards to tOSU. If you don't believe Herbie has an ESPN persona then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

That's just my two cents. It's not like I accused him of being a child abuser and I certainly don't hate him. I just don't always agree with the way he handles himself.

Perhaps I came on too strongly. Actually I'm sure I did.

However, if that is what he believes, then that's that. I don't think it's much of a "persona" as he is emphasizing certain things to different audiences. His show in Columbus is mainly having to deal with the Buckeyes as the subject matter whereas on the national level he has to deal with the Buckeyes, of course, but also teams ranging from Tulane to USC.

As for him not thinking Ohio State deserves a shot at the MNC, I don't think that's the case either. I mean 30 minutes after the Michigan game, something like 6 different and completely disconnected events had to occur for Ohio State to move up to get a shot at the MNC. 1 of those events still has to occur and it could be a longshot seeing as Pitt sucks and it's hard to beat the same team two times in the same year (Mizzou/OK).

Another thing I'm sure of is that he takes an inordinate amount of heat for not being a homer like the others we could list.

 

[Mike80]

But I disagree in a lot of regards to "what he honestly believes". He panders to a national audience as an OSU alum (I'm so objective, I don't put OSU on a platform), and gets on Bruce Hooley's radio show and panders to OSU fans (best talent, great shot at title, etc.) Which one is it? Does OSU have the "elite" talent in the Big 10 and will win it, or does PSU?

And coming into the season, do you blame him? Honestly I thought Ohio State could have lost 3 or even 4 games. Penn State, OTOH, looked like a team that might have been able to roll through the Big Ten with any semblance of a competant offense. Sure that looks wrong now, but hindsight is 20/20.

And as stated before, and numerous times, why is he pulling for OSU NOT to be in the national title game? Do you know any OSU die-hards hoping OSU isn't the national champion?

Somehow I doubt he isn't hoping for Ohio State to get a National Title shot. Do you think he MIGHT be playing it a bit coy given the unusual spate of craziness this season has brought???

He doesn't need to be subjective when arguing for the Buckeyes. In fact, he doesn't even need to make an argument for the Buckeyes. He could however (since as a Buckeye fan, I'm sure he's looked at all the data) point out the fact that we lost to Illinois, WVU lost to USF. OSU also has the "better" win. Don't say OSU should go in front of WVU, but as an OSU alum I'd expect him to raise the point.

I guess I don't get WHY he has to argue for the Buckeyes. If you think he has to do that for them to get into the MNC game, perhaps MAYBE you also think their case isn't the greatest?

Besides that, the problem with you saying that he doesn't have to get "subjective" is the entire friggin argument IS SUBJECTIVE. It's all about perceptions and always will be under this system.

Instead we're lurkers who can backdoor our way in if WVU or Missouri loses. If we do play WVU we're in trouble b/c we'll have a difficult time with all of that team speed WVU has.

Just to point out as well, Corso has stated he thinks OSU is the best 1 loss team. On Gameday he made that statemnet and Kirk wanted no part of it. Even when given an opportuntiy to say complimentary things of the Buckeyes he passed up the chance.

I guess, I just don't get it.

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again. IF you need a national talking head to validate YOUR feelings about how good or bad the Buckeyes are, you might as well shut off the TV.

 

[osucollegebuck]

Since I started the Herbie debate, I just wanted to be clear he wasn't downtalking Ohio State he was just on the other end of what Mark May was saying. I think its hard for him to be neutral. If you ever notice he looks a little uncomfortable when Ohio State is a hot topic, example when Boeckman had that great game against PSU and Corso was comparing him to Tom Brady Herbstreit didn't seem like he wanted to praise Ohio State until Lee and Fowler already had. I can't say I really dislike any of the analysts. I know people on here don't really like Mark May but I think its funny when he gets Holtz riled up with his ND bashing. I guess the only one that annoys me is Doug Flutie on ABC, but maybe thats because he didn't deserve his Heisman.

 

[jwinslow]

And coming into the season, do you blame him? Honestly I thought Ohio State could have lost 3 or even 4 games. Penn State, OTOH, looked like a team that might have been able to roll through the Big Ten with any semblance of a competant offense. Sure that looks wrong now, but hindsight is 20/20.

Except there was no semblance of a good offense. Their QB had one good game all year (against quality comp), they lost their star LT and have a history of OL woes, and had 2 journeymen taking over for a franchise back.

I guess I don't get WHY he has to argue for the Buckeyes. If you think he has to do that for them to get into the MNC game, perhaps MAYBE you also think their case isn't the greatest?

When everyone rails on OSU's schedule, but WVU's is nearly identical, that's a very relevant thing for an unbiased 'expert' to bring up. It tosses the SOS nonsense aside, since it's near equality makes it irrelevant when discussing those two teams.

So you disagree with Herbie repeating the stupid mantra about b10 power vs speed?

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again. IF you need a national talking head to validate YOUR feelings about how good or bad the Buckeyes are, you might as well shut off the TV.

Either you personally struggle with this and are projecting this to billmac (and others), or you just decided to insert something completely irrelevant into the discussion.

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

I'd watch.

As with earlier, some mock BCS matchups to peruse based on the latest standings. Methodology - highest ranked team in conference is considered conference champ for these purposes. Simple. Again - not predictions, just a fun (for me) what-if game. Selection order is Fiesta - Orange - Fiesta - Sugar.

Title Game: Missouri vs. West Virginia
Rose Bowl: Ohio State vs. USC
Sugar Bowl: Georgia vs. Hawaii
Orange Bowl: Virginia Tech vs. Oklahoma
Fiesta Bowl: Kansas vs. LSU

This is not possible, because either LSU or Tennessee must be in the Sugar Bowl as the SEC Champion. Also, there can only be 2 Big 12 teams in the BCS. It will either be Oklahoma and Kansas or Missouri and Kansas, the loser of the Big 12 title game wont make a BCS (which sucks if Missouri beats Kansas but then gets passed over for Kansas for a BCS).

 

[jwinslow]

If you ever notice he looks a little uncomfortable when Ohio State is a hot topic, example when Boeckman had that great game against PSU and Corso was comparing him to Tom Brady Herbstreit didn't seem like he wanted to praise Ohio State until Lee and Brad already had.

Great post. When I think of Herbie & OSU, the word 'hesitant' often comes to mind. Ask Robert Smith what he thinks, and he'll answer instantly with plenty of passion and conviction. He'll blast or praise OSU and stick by his guns, even when he's wrong. Herbie often seems uncomfortable when his compadres are heaping praise upon the home team, especially when comparing them in NC discussions.

I guess the only one that annoys me is Doug Flutie on ABC, but maybe thats because he didn't deserve his Heisman.

His inability to speak on camera is a beef of mine. Unfortunately, ESPN does not care that many of their talking heads cannot perform the basic function of their jobs properly: talking.

 

[billmac91]

And coming into the season, do you blame him? Honestly I thought Ohio State could have lost 3 or even 4 games. Penn State, OTOH, looked like a team that might have been able to roll through the Big Ten with any semblance of a competant offense. Sure that looks wrong now, but hindsight is 20/20.



Somehow I doubt he isn't hoping for Ohio State to get a National Title shot. Do you think he MIGHT be playing it a bit coy given the unusual spate of craziness this season has brought???



I guess I don't get WHY he has to argue for the Buckeyes. If you think he has to do that for them to get into the MNC game, perhaps MAYBE you also think their case isn't the greatest?

Besides that, the problem with you saying that he doesn't have to get "subjective" is the entire friggin argument IS SUBJECTIVE. It's all about perceptions and always will be under this system.







I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again. IF you need a national talking head to validate YOUR feelings about how good or bad the Buckeyes are, you might as well shut off the TV.

As for him being coy, absolutely not, he was being very serious. He stated he wants OSU-USC in the Rose. Brent was busting his balls about OSU getting a crack at the national title after all of these upsets and he definatively stated "I want the Buckeyes in the Rose bowl".

As for talking heads, they don't hurt my feelings. What bothers me is Kirk passing up opportunties to praise the Buckeyes but jumping on the opportuntiy to tell recruits "he wouldn't want to play at OSU"

I don't think the Buckeyes have the greatest case, but they do have one, and you don't need to be subjective about it. If not Kirk, why doesn't anyone else make the argument that OSU has a legit reason to be in the title game even if Missouri and WVU win. The reason I think Kirk should make at least a passing statement is that:

• by not doing so idiot relatives of mine (and I'm sure many others) assume he thinks the Buckeyes are weak and don't deserve to be there because WVU and Missouri are all he mentions for the national title game
• His comments about all of the team speed at WVU absolutely pander to every college football fan who thinks OSU lost last year due to team speed even though he wrote before this season that UF beat us b/c they were hungrier

I'll be fine though. Actually, Kirk himself will actually make me feel better about our chances later this week when he does Bruce's radio show.

 

[Mike80]

Except there was no semblance of a good offense. Their QB had one good game all year (against quality comp), they lost their star LT and have a history of OL woes, and had 2 journeymen taking over for a franchise back.

Who was Penn State's franchise back last year? Again hindsight is 20/20.

When everyone rails on OSU's schedule, but WVU's is nearly identical, that's a very relevant thing for an unbiased 'expert' to bring up. It tosses the SOS nonsense aside, since it's near equality makes it irrelevant when discussing those two teams.

So you disagree with Herbie repeating the stupid mantra about b10 power vs speed?

I lumped these together mainly to illustrate that there ARE things I disagree with him about. However that really isn't what I'm trying to say. What I AM trying to say is that he (Herbstreit) doesn't necessarily have to pimp the Buckeyes all the time on national TV, national title shot or no.

Either you personally struggle with this and are projecting this to billmac (and others), or you just decided to insert something completely irrelevant into the discussion.

Ask Billmac. He's the one wanting validation from Herbie et. al concerning Ohio State and the MNC, not me. I know what I think of Ohio State this year and where I think they could/should end up.

 

[Mike80]

As for him being coy, absolutely not, he was being very serious. He stated he wants OSU-USC in the Rose. Brent was busting his balls about OSU getting a crack at the national title after all of these upsets and he definatively stated "I want the Buckeyes in the Rose bowl".

As for talking heads, they don't hurt my feelings. What bothers me is Kirk passing up opportunties to praise the Buckeyes but jumping on the opportuntiy to tell recruits "he wouldn't want to play at OSU"

I don't think the Buckeyes have the greatest case, but they do have one, and you don't need to be subjective about it. If not Kirk, why doesn't anyone else make the argument that OSU has a legit reason to be in the title game even if Missouri and WVU win. The reason I think Kirk should make at least a passing statement is that:

• by not doing so idiot relatives of mine (and I'm sure many others) assume he thinks the Buckeyes are weak and don't deserve to be their because WVU and Missouri are all he mentions for the national title game
• His comments about all of the team speed at WVU absolutely pander to every college football fan who thinks OSU lost last year due to team speed even though he wrote before this season that UF beat us b/c they were hungrier

I'll be fine though. Actually, Kirk himself will actually make me feel better about our chances later this week when he does Bruce's radio show.

again the entire "team speed" argument is stupid and I completely disagree with him there. However, if that's his opinion, he's entitled too it. I don't care if he's a former-Buckeye, however wrong I might think it is, that's his opinion (and his job).

The same goes for the MNC. If he feels it should be Mizzou/WVU, then that's that. If both those teams win out this Saturday it will almost certainly be those two anyway. There is very little he can say or will say that will change that.

As for the recruits, he isn't a recruiter for Ohio State. Hell that COULD BE a headgame he's playing on other schools and the recruits themselves so that the question is asked and the Ohio State coaches can illustrate how and what they do (yes I'm just throwing that out there for the hell of it).

He isn't Paul Keels or someone who only covers Ohio State sports or Marty Brennaman covering the Reds. While it's nice he has a local show (and the cause of a ton of your issues just reading back through this stuff tonight), he's a national media member now. That means that sometimes he will say things you don't agree with or I don't agree with.

I guess I don't understand all the consternation over it.

 

[jwinslow]

If ESPN is so riddled with schticks & puppets (and it is), then why is it assumed that Herbie is not merely playing the 'level-headed' role? It certainly would explain the substantial divide from his stances on local radio.

Who was Penn State's franchise back last year?

Seriously? Tony Hunt. 1400 yds, 5 ypc, 11 tds 300 rec yds, 3 tds. 135 yds (5.6 ypc) in the shoe last year, with no help from his QB.

Again hindsight is 20/20.

Whose? Many around the b10 boards laughed at Herbie's constant pimpage of PSU for those very reasons, including myself and others on BP. UW & UM were the preseason favorites. Herbie was definitely sticking his nose out with PSU.

Ask Billmac. He's the one wanting validation from Herbie et. al concerning Ohio State and the MNC, not me. I know what I think of Ohio State this year and where I think they could/should end up.

No, he's the one wondering why Herbie is so hesitant to praise OSU at times, but has no trouble gushing over SC for years on end. I wonder the same thing. My self-confidence does not have to be tied to Herbie to call him out on his two-faced nature.

edit: billmac's last line does fall a bit more in line with what you're suggesting...

 

[billmac91]

Who was Penn State's franchise back last year? Again hindsight is 20/20.



I lumped these together mainly to illustrate that there ARE things I disagree with him about. However that really isn't what I'm trying to say. What I AM trying to say is that he (Herbstreit) doesn't necessarily have to pimp the Buckeyes all the time on national TV, national title shot or no.





Ask Billmac. He's the one wanting validation from Herbie et. al concerning Ohio State and the MNC, not me. I know what I think of Ohio State this year and where I think they could/should end up.

Him wanting OSU - USC in the Rose helps his cause though b/c he's considered (right or wrong) the national Buckeye expert. I guarantee, whether it would make much of a difference or not, if he stated he thought the Buckeyes deserved to be in the title game, it would have an impact on the Harris poll. Talking heads do have an impact on perception of teams.

Again, maybe Kirk thinks the 2 best teams are WVU and Missouri, but I'm willing to bet he'll be singing a different tune come Weds afternoon with Bruce.

 

[Mike80]

If ESPN is so riddled with schticks & puppets (and it is), then why is it assumed that Herbie is not merely playing the 'level-headed' role? It certainly would explain the substantial divide from his stances on local radio.

I don't have any problems with it whatsoever for the reasons stated.

Seriously? Tony Hunt. 1400 yds, 5 ypc, 11 tds 300 rec yds, 3 tds. 135 yds (5.6 ypc) in the shoe last year, with no help from his QB.

Ok I was having issues remembering the name. That was it.

Whose? Many around the b10 boards laughed at Herbie's constant pimpage of PSU for those very reasons, including myself and others on BP.

The Big Ten looked wide open this year, especially after Michigan's loss to App State and the supposed rebuilding year at Ohio State. He moved up Penn State instead of someone else. It was wrong, I thought it was wrong too BTW.

No, he's the one wondering why Herbie is so hesitant to praise OSU at times, but has no trouble gushing over SC for years on end. I wonder the same thing. My self-confidence does not have to be tied to Herbie to call him out on his two-faced nature.

So call in and ask him if it bothers you guys so much. This same thing happens damn near every year and is becoming almost as predictable as the "Brent Musberger hates Ohio State" screeds every year.

 

[Mike80]

Him wanting OSU - USC in the Rose helps his cause though b/c he's considered (right or wrong) the national Buckeye expert. I guarantee, whether it would make much of a difference or not, if he stated he thought the Buckeyes deserved to be in the title game, it would have an impact on the Harris poll. Talking heads do have an impact on perception of teams.

I don't think Herbie has quite enough clout to overcome 115 points and 34 first place votes (the difference in the Harris between Ohio State and West Virginia), but maybe a 1st place vote or 3 might switch. Certainly it is debatable to say that he'd swing the entire poll OHio State's way with any comments.

Again, maybe Kirk thinks the 2 best teams are WVU and Missouri, but I'm willing to bet he'll be singing a different tune come Weds afternoon with Bruce.

I wish I could listen to it so we could compare and contrast what I hear and what you'll hear. It might be the same, it might be different.

 

[billmac91]

So call in and ask him if it bothers you guys so much. This same thing happens damn near every year and is becoming almost as predictable as the "Brent Musberger hates Ohio State" screeds every year.

I like Brent. His ties don't borther me, and I think he's objective as possible. He plays up both teams as much as he can. I did enjoy his orange and blue tie this year, almost as if he was giving OSU fans something to complain about this year.

The difference between Brent and Kirk, is Kirk is seen as the expert. Brent just calls games. Kirk has lots of influence in the country b/c of his gameday position and high status at ESPN. Saying WVU has more team speed than OSU and that he's hoping for an OSU-USC Rose certainly works against OSU on a national basis.

 

[jwinslow]

So call in and ask him if it bothers you guys so much.

Which Herbie should I call? Local homer herbie, or national herbie? That's my main issue with the guy, and calling him is a pretty pointless endeavour.

I wish I could listen to it so we could compare and contrast what I hear and what you'll hear. It might be the same, it might be different.

Hooley does the pot-stirring on 1460 with the cliff-jumping, emotional rants & devil's advocation. Herbie is usually the level headed, intelligent contributor to the broadcast. You can listen to Herbie every day for a week or two without hearing anything but constructive criticism at worst. During most ESPN saturday night broadcasts, he gets in subtle little shots at the conference like the one discussed tonight. Personally, I don't hear those same kinds of comments on gameday, and their random interjection into the game (esp earlier this year when OSU was not yet a NC contender) sure feels scripted.