Are football players courageous?

[StooGrimson]

So, no one is saying that football players are always courageous. No one is saying that they are courageous simply because they play the game.

Actually someone did make that exact arguement:

I think the simple act of competing in something 100% and opening up yourself to the chance fo defeat/failure is courageous.

I see no problem comparing someone who faces potential injury on the job with athletes and it's b/c of that comparison that I believe it doesn't take any courage to be a football player. There are moments in any sporting event that require determination, but I don't equate that to courage.

 

[bleed_scrlt&gry]

two words.... Pat Tillman

 

[CausticMick]

two words.... Pat Tillman

 

[tibor75]

Stoo, I think we're all getting tired of the ad hominen remarks.

This thread focused on a specific question. Could football players show courage and passion in the game. Tibor thinks not and makes an extreme number of unhelpful comments about others who disagree with him.

However, we are still waiting on Tibor to justify his point of view. That is, to argue its merits without the trash talk or building straw men (i.e., inaccurately construing the arguments made by others in order to easily knock these down).

So, no one is saying that football players are always courageous. No one is saying that they are courageous simply because they play the game.

Uh, we're still waiting Tibs...

They could show courage if they saved the life of somebody.

A plumber could show courage by saving a baby from a building that happens to be burning when he's there to work on the pipes.

But nobody would be stupid enough save you to actually say "Plumbers can be courageous."

Well of course anybody could be courageous on any day if the situation calls for it. But are football players special? Only a dumbass would say so and be so stupid as to think a player who gets injured shows "PASSION AND COURAGE. WHOPEEE!!!!"
So to summarize anybody who thinks that Buckeye football is about courage is just being stupid and has no perspective on life.

 

[Steve19]

Well, Tibs, I guess I am the eternal optimist in guessing that maybe, sometime, you will be able to discuss a point of view with attacking others or making disparaging remarks...I won't respond in kind and quite frankly I think you have done a fine job of demonstrating your skill and wit in public debate.

I return again to the scenario that I left for you nearly a week ago and to which you refuse to reply because the argument so clearly and logically disproves argument that you have advanced.

Again, the definition of courage is as follows,

Courage is the "state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery

Again, you draw straw men by pointing out context. Is it not possible that a football player might continue to play, despite fear that continuing would cause an injury that might be very painful and perhaps career limiting. It a player did play in that circumstance by definition he would be courageous.

It doesn't matter if the individual saves someone's life. And there are degrees of courage. All that matters for courage to be shown is that a person confronts their fear and acts in a way that overcomes it. By definition, then a person playing football can act courageously while on the field, in dealing with injury afterwards, and in other aspects of the game.

By definition.

Tibs, you will note that I have not insulted you, called your intelligence into question, or otherwise attacked you as a person.

I hope you might find a lesson in there somewhere.

 

[tibor75]

Again, you draw straw men by pointing out context. Is it not possible that a football player might continue to play, despite fear that continuing would cause an injury that might be very painful and perhaps career limiting. It a player did play in that circumstance by definition he would be courageous. .

Who cares? Painful injury? career limiting? Big fucking deal. that's why they play the game. If they are scared of those things, they should get off the field.
You can't be called courageous for doing things that you only have yourself to blame.
By the same token, I wouldn't call any mountain climbers really that courageous. Maybe borderline stupid.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

But you live in Hawaii, that's like $15,000 a year in Ohio.

Actually, the cost of living is quite bearable if you have military benefits (commissary, exchange, medical). With those, the only real major differences in cost between here and most of the mainland are housing and gasoline. And since I don't have to pay for home heating at all, that more than makes up for the difference in gasoline cost.

Well at least he's had one less divorce.

Give it time...

 

[Bucklion]

They could show courage if they saved the life of somebody.

A plumber could show courage by saving a baby from a building that happens to be burning when he's there to work on the pipes.

But nobody would be stupid enough save you to actually say "Plumbers can be courageous."

Well of course anybody could be courageous on any day if the situation calls for it. But are football players special? Only a dumbass would say so and be so stupid as to think a player who gets injured shows "PASSION AND COURAGE. WHOPEEE!!!!"
So to summarize anybody who thinks that Buckeye football is about courage is just being stupid and has no perspective on life.

Joe Delaney, for example.

I haven't read this whole thread, but do we have an agreed upon working definition of courage? Seems to me courage, valor, brave, daring, spirited...these all mean roughly the same thing, but some describe football players (in general), some don't seem to as much. Playing football is dangerous, but voluntary and a sport, and there is considerably less on the line than, say, a soldier faces (extreme example). But of course they do crash into other 300 pound monsters every day of their life. I don't know, you can't equate soldiers to football players, of course, but can you use the same word to describe them in certain ways? Tough call.

 

[Thump]

Give it time...

 

[sandgk]

It's simply idiotic to think that simply playing football is courageous. It's so stupid as to be almost without argument.

Sure, it would be just stupid to make an argument like that - in your opinion. What amazes me is that no-one actually took up such a standard, it is so demonstrably realistic and true.

Taking the counter - [SIZE=-1]reductio ad absurdum[/SIZE] - no courage is required to play football, or say rugby, or fly down the hill on skis at high MPH, or pick your poison, or any other activity in which one places your life or limb at risk. Somehow, that sounds so much less reasonable.

Ergo, if courage is required of football players, then depending upon the duress they must undergo they are, perforce, to a greater or lesser extent commensurate with their efforts, courageous.

 

[Steve19]

Who cares? Painful injury? career limiting? Big fucking deal. that's why they play the game. If they are scared of those things, they should get off the field.
You can't be called courageous for doing things that you only have yourself to blame.
By the same token, I wouldn't call any mountain climbers really that courageous. Maybe borderline stupid.

Thanks for that, Tibs. However, once again, the definition of courage is...

Courage is the "state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.


So, you can be called courageous in exactly the circumstances you raise as examples.

It doesn't matter if you personally define courage differently than the accepted definition. The context in which courage is shown has nothing to do with the flawed logical argument.

Why people play the game has nothing to do with the core theme of this thread.

What we are discussing was clearly defined in my last message.

What your argument does is to build yet another straw man. This one is based on the contention that there is a defined "hurdle point" at which confronting reasonable fear becomes courage. However, the definition of courage has no such hurdle point.

As sandgk has pointed out, consider the argument from the other persective, that is, that at least some courage might be required in some sports. Which was the exact question of the thread.

 

[StooGrimson]

Taking the counter - [SIZE=-1]reductio ad absurdum[/SIZE] - no courage is required to play football, or say rugby, or fly down the hill on skis at high MPH, or pick your poison, or any other activity in which one places your life or limb at risk. Somehow, that sounds so much less reasonable.

Eh, the activities you mention may require courage (and stupidity depending on the challenge) if you've never done them before, but if you've constantly trained and developed the necessary skills to do them, I see no courage needed.

 

[Steve19]

Eh, the activities you mention may require courage (and stupidity depending on the challenge) if you've never done them before, but if you've constantly trained and developed the necessary skills to do them, I see no courage needed.

An alternative viewpoint would argue that training and skills have no bearing on whether a person shows courage because people engaging in sports often do not anticipate the things that inspire their courage.

Here's an example that comes to mind immediately.

I currently have a knee injury that is going to require surgery. The injury was incurred in a freak accident and required no courage on my part. It would not be courageous for me to go run on it anyway, because I have no higher purpose that is driving my action and requiring me to do so, I need not show resolve, and in fact would be unwise.

However, consider an Olympic athlete sustained the very same injury I have sustained. She is well trained and highly skilled. Nevertheless, if she continued to finish a race and get a medal at the risk of injury to herself, because she was representing her nation and had given her word to help her team achieve its goals, then she shows courage.

 

[StooGrimson]

An alternative viewpoint would argue that training and skills have no bearing on whether a person shows courage because people engaging in sports often do not anticipate the things that inspire their courage.

Here's an example that comes to mind immediately.

I currently have a knee injury that is going to require surgery. The injury was incurred in a freak accident and required no courage on my part. It would not be courageous for me to go run on it anyway, because I have no higher purpose that is driving my action and requiring me to do so, I need not show resolve, and in fact would be unwise.

However, consider an Olympic athlete sustained the very same injury I have sustained. She is well trained and highly skilled. Nevertheless, if she continued to finish a race and get a medal at the risk of injury to herself, because she was representing her nation and had given her word to help her team achieve its goals, then she shows courage.

Eh, I would have chosen the word 'determination' over courage. Plus, there's a massive difference between an Olympic athlete who gets only one chance every four years (providing they even make a team) to accomplish their lifelong goal and you or I attempting to set a new PR. A medal and the glory that accompanies it is is easily worth the chance of an injury. I see no courage when working of the cost/benefit analysis in that case. Besides, the motivation, determination, and potential rewards of the Olympian is immeasureably greater making a comparison difficult if even possible.

 

[tibor75]

However, consider an Olympic athlete sustained the very same injury I have sustained. She is well trained and highly skilled. Nevertheless, if she continued to finish a race and get a medal at the risk of injury to herself, because she was representing her nation and had given her word to help her team achieve its goals, then she shows courage.

So, this person is risking injury for the chance at achieving glory for her country and for herself and for a place in the record books?

That is courage?

Did Reggie Lewis show courage by playing basketball despite being told that he shouldn't? I don't think so.