40 Years Ago Today

[cincibuck]

On January 30, 1968-during the Tet holiday cease-fire in South Vietnam-an estimated 80,000 troops of the North Vietnamese Army and National Liberation Front attacked cities and military establishments throughout South Vietnam. The most spectacular episode occurred when a group of NLF commandos blasted through the wall surrounding the American embassy in Saigon and unsuccessfully attempted to seize the embassy building. Most of the attacks were turned back, with the communist forces suffering heavy losses.

Battles continued to rage throughout the country for weeks--the fight to reclaim the city of Hue from communist troops was particularly destructive. American and South Vietnamese forces lost over 3,000 men during the offensive. Estimates for communist losses ran as high as 40,000.

I was the XO for a Transportation Company based in Ft. Lewis, Washington at the time and recall how shocked we were that the NVA could strike in such strength in so many places. Their losses were hideous, but demonstrated that the NVA was willing to fight, something that I could not, would not, say about our ARVN allies.

 

[scooter1369]

Fucking gooks always sneak attacking and shit.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

The man in the black pajamas: worthy fucking adversaries, Dude!

--Walter Sobchack (1990)

 

[martinss01]

that war is proof positive that politicians have no place in war planning or implementation. the only 3 things a politician should have a say on military conflict is:

1. do we go to war in the first place
2. nukes or no nukes
3. victory conditions

beyond that, stfu and let the pros do their fucken job.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

beyond that, stfu and let the pros do their fucken job.

Like Westmoreland? With pros like that, we'd still be over there, reading his inflated body counts and predictions of victory just around the corner.

 

[martinss01]

its a posibility. i certainly am not a fan. however, it makes one wonder what tactics would have been used had the militaries hands not been tied behind them. thats not an excuse. simply something to think about.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

its a posibility. i certainly am not a fan. however, it makes one wonder what tactics would have been used had the militaries hands not been tied behind them. thats not an excuse. simply something to think about.

The military's hands were tied for very good reason: to not spark WWIII by getting the Russians and/or Chinese involved. Even still we killed at a ratio of something like 20:1 and lost. Lacking a complete genocide against the civilian population ("destroying the village in order to save it" on a national basis) there never was any chance for victory in Vietnam. It was destined for failure from day one and only hindsight and 55K lives allowed us (or most of us at least) to realize that.

 

[Mike80]

The military's hands were tied for very good reason: to not spark WWIII by getting the Russians and/or Chinese involved. Even still we killed at a ratio of something like 20:1 and lost. Lacking a complete genocide against the civilian population ("destroying the village in order to save it" on a national basis) there never was any chance for victory in Vietnam. It was destined for failure from day one and only hindsight and 55K lives allowed us (or most of us at least) to realize that.

Well no when you don't even attempt to go for the capital and/or leadership of a nation that is openly fighting you and instead fight a mainly defensive style ground war (meaning no real attempt at actually defeating North Vietnam, just trying to contain them and doing air strikes into their nation), you're going to lose every time.

I don't think the Russians would have started World War III due to a proxy war like Vietnam. The Chinese were in a situation of the both being a historical rival to the Russians (along with a constant tension and/or shooting conflict on their northern border) AND having a common border with the Vietnamese. They obviously weren't big fans of us and were sympathetic to the Vietnamese, but as we found out less than 4 years after South Vietnam fell, the North Vietnamese were in the Russian sphere of influence more than the Chinese. As it was the Chinese and the Russians were shooting at each other along the Amur River in the late 60s and early 70s, they weren't exactly friends lets say.

Although while Tet was a shock to the people in the US, it hurt the Viet Cong more than it hurt the US in military terms. Politically the results were mainly neutral to the North Vietnamese (Giap saw it as a failure) but in the US that is essentially what changed the tide for the entire war. Johnson decided it was time for Vietnamization (I know I probably screwed the spelling up there) and Nixon finished it. Of course had we gotten out of Vietnam like Kennedy seemed to want to do in 1963, I wonder what the world would look like today......

Hindsight is 20/20, but in a vaccum different strategic objectives probably win the war. However, that wasn't the case or the political climate. Had Kennedy gone into it similar to what we did in Korea when he started sending more and more US troops beginning in 1960, maybe things turn out differently. Having competent leadership in South Vietnam would have helped too probably.

Global Security has a pretty decent overview page of the war here:

Vietnam War

and while I'm editing, Cinci and every other Vet on here, thank you for your service

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

My dad was at Ton Son Nut AB during Tet in '68. He has told me a few stories now that he is getting older. I couldn't image being in that situation. I'm just glad God was looking out for him that day.

I can't believe we are still armchair quarterbacking the Vietnam War. Can we just thank the vets and move on?

 

[Mike80]

I can't believe we are still armchair quarterbacking the Vietnam War. Can we just thank the vets and move on?

This country hasn't and likely won't move on as long as every single military action dredges up memories of Vietnam (no matter how unrelated) for some.

It was an interesting time to be alive I'm sure.

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

This country hasn't and likely won't move on as long as every single military action dredges up memories of Vietnam (no matter how unrelated) for some.

It was an interesting time to be alive I'm sure.

Because the libs step in and say, "you can't do that, it's not fair!" War is not fair. I say screw them and kill 'em all!!! And BTW yes civilians DO die in war.....

 

[DaytonBuck]

The military's hands were tied for very good reason: to not spark WWIII by getting the Russians and/or Chinese involved. Even still we killed at a ratio of something like 20:1 and lost. Lacking a complete genocide against the civilian population ("destroying the village in order to save it" on a national basis) there never was any chance for victory in Vietnam. It was destined for failure from day one and only hindsight and 55K lives allowed us (or most of us at least) to realize that.

We firebomb Hanoi and every other major North Vietnamese city like Tokyo during World War II and the war would have turned out differently.

 

[Mike80]

We firebomb Hanoi and every other major North Vietnamese city like Tokyo during World War II and the war would have turned out differently.

If we actually put troops on the ground in North Vietnam with the intention of taking out Hanoi, things probably turn out differently too.

 

[cincibuck]

Wow, I didn't intend this to get into a shit storm, but since it has here are some of my thoughts:

1. It wasn't 'our' war to win or lose... it was the Vietnamese. They chose to go with communism as was amply displayed by the determination of the NVA and the people of North Vietnam. I was in a postion that allowed me to be in the field and in Saigon each week. In the field I heard about and saw the lack of discipline in the ARVN and their unwillingness to make contact with and fight the NVA. When I was in Saigon I could not help but note that the streets were filled with young men 16 to 30 something and not in uniform. I quickly surmized that the people of Saigon were willing to fight for their independence to the last American and not much beyond.

2. Fire bomb the major cities? We dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than we dropped on Germany and Japan together. We mined their ports and tore up their transportation net, interdicted their supply lines from the border with China till war material was delivered by back pack in the Mekong Delta and still they had people willing to walk the supply route and make their system work.

3. We ignored the fact that they had fought for independence for more than a thousand years with the Chinese, Cambodians, French, Japanese, French again and then us. They were fighting a war to run their own country which is why they took aid from the Russians and not from the Chinese.

4. When I came home I was called a fool for serving by conservatives and a baby killer or Nazi by liberals. I'd like to know why we ended up with a draft dodger and an AWOL for Commander In Chief for the last 16 years. It seems to me that the military was not served well by the politicians of either party, then or now.

6. It took a long time to figure out how to be proud of my service, time when I know that my status as a Vietnam vet was a detriment to employment and promotion, even within the Army Reserve.

7. Wise or foolish, The US went to war for legitimate reasons, unfortunately the decision was based on bad intelligence (how unique!) about the nation we were going to fight and with a plan based on contigencies in Europe, not on a "LIC" Light Intensity Conflict. We tried to fight a guerrila war with a conventional force sturcture, based on superiority of fire and incredible mobility. It didn't work and we didn't adapt and in five years time the public failed to support continuing the war. I did not enter the Army until September, 1967, a full two years into the war and yet I did not receive more than 15 hours of instruction, in the classroom or in training exercises on guerrila warfare. I had less than 1 day of training on the M-16 prior to shipping out for Vietnam. That is a shocking fact of how poorly we were trained for the mission we faced. During that same time frame the score used to determine those who were mentally fit to serve was lowered significantly... McNamara's Hundred Thousand... so that folks like Bill Clinton and Dick Cheney would not have to give up their student deferments.