2018 QB Battle Discussion

[wigmon]

The best defense these quarterbacks have faced the last 2 years is when they go against our #1's in practice which they've done fairly regularly (ie, much larger sample size than a couple of spring games and the limited game time each has gotten). I believe Burrow was the slight leader based on those practices headed into last year, but had a wrist injury and was supplanted by Haskins. I get the impression that Burrow has been a little better in overall command of the offense and consistency in practice, but Haskins has the strong arm and of course the UM performance. The other issue is the overall offensive scheme. Meyer likes the zone read and Wilsons passing schemes have been quick reads and short throws for the most part. If you go with Burrow, there is no change to the offensive scheme (though less QB runs are likely as Burrow will give the ball more). If you go with Haskins, you really need to change the offensive scheme from what Meyer has typically done. Not saying one way is better than the other, but I assume it will play a part in the decision.

 

[MSURacerDT55]

I agree. Because Haskins started out with such a huge head start due to his winning the game for us against scUM (and rightly so), I think it's pretty telling as to the Burrow vs. Haskins winner this spring that Urban hasn't declared an overall winner.

Could it be because Urban secretly doesn't want to lose Burrow to transfer and plays up this tight race because he is more comfortable having Burrow at backup than he is Martell/Baldwin. Just a thought

 

[MSURacerDT55]

The best defense these quarterbacks have faced the last 2 years is when they go against our #1's in practice which they've done fairly regularly (ie, much larger sample size than a couple of spring games and the limited game time each has gotten). I believe Burrow was the slight leader based on those practices headed into last year, but had a wrist injury and was supplanted by Haskins. I get the impression that Burrow has been a little better in overall command of the offense and consistency in practice, but Haskins has the strong arm and of course the UM performance. The other issue is the overall offensive scheme. Meyer likes the zone read and Wilsons passing schemes have been quick reads and short throws for the most part. If you go with Burrow, there is no change to the offensive scheme (though less QB runs are likely as Burrow will give the ball more). If you go with Haskins, you really need to change the offensive scheme from what Meyer has typically done. Not saying one way is better than the other, but I assume it will play a part in the decision.

I though Wilson's offenses at OU and IU utilized vertical passing games? Wouldn't that favor Haskins?

 

[bukIpower]

What is out there to prove that one is more accurate over a whole season than the other Dwayne completed 70% of 57 throws last year and 70% in last years spring game. Burrow completed 63% of 11 last year and 63% in last years spring game and 68% in this years.

Haskins completion percentage is actually better than Burrow between the last 2 spring games and last season. Haskins is 75/113 66.4% and Burrow 36/55 65.5% not sure where the more accurate comments for burrow keep confidently coming from. Whats to say Haskins just wasn't off for a day and was just trying to make some plays over the top instead of taking checkdowns.

Burrow hardly played last year due to injury and we had those high percentage crossing routes in 2017.

Burrow didn't have those crossing route patterns in 2016.

Probably not a crazy difference there either way so we can settle on that I guess that accuracy is a push. However the turning the ball over is something that IMO probably will decide everything.

Can't turn the ball over and Haskins has shown to do that with a few going for defensive scores. QB has to first make sure they aren't hurting us IMO before we consider who can lead us to scores.

There will be a game or two this upcoming year where we will have trouble scoring and it'll be in those games we will need a QB who doesn't make the back breaking TO.

 

[bukIpower]

I laugh when people worry about bad turnovers with the QB- oh, you mean like an interception on your own 20 against Oklahoma? Or a pick six on the first drive against Iowa? Or an interception that set up an easy touchdown at the end of the first half against Iowa? Or a pick six in the B1G championship game?

The most experienced, intelligent, cautious QB you are ever going to see on a college field had some truly horrendous turnovers last year.

I don’t find worrying about that with Haskins a compelling argument to keep the most talented guy off the field.

And in the games where he played loose with the ball we for the most part lost.

We dominated that Wisconsin game. We had them with an opportunity to win by 4+ scores. Jts off night is what made that game close and it could have easily lead to a loss as a result.

Being care less with the ball will cost us vs good teams.

 

[Buckeye86]

And in the games where he played loose with the ball we for the most part lost.

We dominated that Wisconsin game. We had them with an opportunity to win by 4+ scores. Jts off night is what made that game close and it could have easily lead to a loss as a result.

Being care less with the ball will cost us vs good teams.

I think the exact opposite: being talented, letting it fly, and scoring a bunch of points can make up for some really bad turnovers.

Turnovers are going to happen (the point of my original post), let’s put a guy on the field that can make some amazing plays, hopefully a whole lot more of them, to balance out the turnovers.

 

[jwinslow]

I think the exact opposite: being talented, letting it fly, and scoring a bunch of points can make up for some really bad turnovers.

Turnovers are going to happen (the point of my original post), let’s put a guy on the field that can make some amazing plays, hopefully a whole lot more of them, to balance out the turnovers.

In bulk? No, not really.

Philosophically you can't play scared, but you brought up a series of crippling turnovers from JT and how they could not overcome them. That's not a very helpful set of examples.

I fully understand the desire to roll with Dwayne and see where his upside can take this offense but he has to protect the ball if they're going to win a NC, which is ultimately the goal for this season. He also has to take care of the ball because we're trading in a short yardage first down machine (JT) for a guy who needs limited eyes on him to execute with his feet (and to a lesser extent doing the same with letting Burrow's all around game walk out the door, assuming they pick Dwayne).

 

[Buckeye86]

In bulk? No, not really.

Philosophically you can't play scared, but you brought up a series of crippling turnovers from JT and how they could not overcome them. That's not a very helpful set of examples.

I fully understand the desire to roll with Dwayne and see where his upside can take this offense but he has to protect the ball if they're going to win a NC, which is ultimately the goal for this season. He also has to take care of the ball because we're trading in a short yardage first down machine (JT) for a guy who needs limited eyes on him to execute with his feet (and to a lesser extent doing the same with letting Burrow's all around game walk out the door, assuming they pick Dwayne).

Yeah, I guess the crux of my point relies on Haskins playing well and making throws outside of the interceptions.

If he is just playing like garbage in general then yeah, that is a problem.

To restate my point somewhat, if you could go back to the Oklahoma game and play Haskins instead of Barrett, why the hell not play Haskins?

Maybe he turns the ball over, but at least he might make some throws, too.

Barrett didn’t take care of the ball and also didn’t make throws to move the offense.

I guess this point doesn’t directly address the competition between Burrow and Haskins and is useless to the current conversation, but there it is.

 

[jwinslow]

Right, gambling and hoping in Haskins after Barrett's ceiling makes sense. Burrow has the potential to be a rich man's Barrett, and is a more well rounded talent than any of the QBs on roster for this scheme.

Urban is always challenging and using the media to motivate his guys. It seems clear there is a need to step up as a leader from Dwayne (not that he's unfit, just hasn't seized it).

 

[Buckeye86]

Right, gambling and hoping in Haskins after Barrett's ceiling makes sense. Burrow has the potential to be a rich man's Barrett, and is a more well rounded talent than any of the QBs on roster for this scheme.

Urban is always challenging and using the media to motivate his guys. It seems clear there is a need to step up as a leader from Dwayne (not that he's unfit, just hasn't seized it).

I think my general thoughts on the competition got buried. Outside of the ball security tangent, to restate my general feelings:

I think a lot of the players think/feel Haskins will be/should be the starter.

I have no doubt that Burrow would be an effective starting QB, but I think Haskins is the choice of the locker room, and unless there is a clear difference in terms of performance, which there isn’t, I think you have to go with Haskins or risk losing some chemistry amongst the team.

I also think Burrow is less of a problem as the backup because he can either 1) have no hard feelings as he transfers to a great opportunity for him to play from day one at another school or 2) is truly all in with the team as the backup.

I do not think having Haskins as the backup is that “clean.”

I feel for Burrow, and once again think he absolutely could be a great starter at OSU, I just think you have to go with Haskins unless there is a clear difference, and there is not.

I also think using Martell as a read option safety blanket in certain situations also points to Haskins as the starter.

If it was just Burrow v Haskins, I think Burrow’s superior ability to execute the read option would be a much larger factor, possibly to the point of giving Burrow the starting edge.

However, you have Martell sitting there to throw in the game to run read option in short yardage situations, and it diminishes (possibly greatly) the biggest advantage Burrow has in the competition.

 

[Taosman]

People seem to believe that Burrow is a better runner. From what I saw in the scUM game Haskins is just fine as a runner. Neither guy should be doing much run by design with two thousand yard runners in the backfield. And let Martel do his QB as runner thing.

 

[jwinslow]

People seem to believe that Burrow is a better runner. From what I saw in the scUM game Haskins is just fine as a runner. Neither guy should be doing much run by design with two thousand yard runners in the backfield. And let Martel do his QB as runner thing.

they aren't within miles of each other as designed runners. Haskins is considerably behind Burrow who is somewhat behind the electric Martell. Tate is electric, Burrow is good and Dwayne is poor as an option QB.

We heard this same thing after 2014, when people mistook Cardale's scrambling ability (clowning DePriest and permanently taking Collins' manhood) his running ability (so many meager or negative qb runs Vs Bama) The former involves a QB surprising the defense when 0-2 guys are watching him. Tom Brady can do that under the right circumstances. Cardale and Dwayne have decent athleticism for surprise scrambles that are mostly straight line runs.

What matters is how well they operate the option and move when 11 eyes are on them. His explosiveness and lateral athleticism are gisnt weaknesses in those situations, neither of which Burrow suffers from.

That doesn't mean he can't be really good in this offense, just like Joe could thrive without Dwayne's arm. It just means that a scramble has no relevance to a short yardage qb run.

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

The best defense these quarterbacks have faced the last 2 years is when they go against our #1's in practice which they've done fairly regularly (ie, much larger sample size than a couple of spring games and the limited game time each has gotten). I believe Burrow was the slight leader based on those practices headed into last year, but had a wrist injury and was supplanted by Haskins. I get the impression that Burrow has been a little better in overall command of the offense and consistency in practice, but Haskins has the strong arm and of course the UM performance. The other issue is the overall offensive scheme. Meyer likes the zone read and Wilsons passing schemes have been quick reads and short throws for the most part. If you go with Burrow, there is no change to the offensive scheme (though less QB runs are likely as Burrow will give the ball more). If you go with Haskins, you really need to change the offensive scheme from what Meyer has typically done. Not saying one way is better than the other, but I assume it will play a part in the decision.

I think most of us are ready for a change to the offensively predictable offense.

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

they aren't within miles of each other as designed runners. Haskins is considerably behind Burrow who is somewhat behind the electric Martell. Tate is electric, Burrow is good and Dwayne is poor as an option QB.

We heard this same thing after 2014, when people mistook Cardale's scrambling ability (clowning DePriest and permanently taking Collins' manhood) his running ability (so many meager or negative qb runs Vs Bama) The former involves a QB surprising the defense when 0-2 guys are watching him. Tom Brady can do that under the right circumstances. Cardale and Dwayne have decent athleticism for surprise scrambles that are mostly straight line runs.

What matters is how well they operate the option and move when 11 eyes are on them. His explosiveness and lateral athleticism are gisnt weaknesses in those situations, neither of which Burrow suffers from.

That doesn't mean he can't be really good in this offense, just like Joe could thrive without Dwayne's arm. It just means that a scramble has no relevance to a short yardage qb run.

I don’t really care who the starter is. Just wasn’t to say that the QB scramble is all that a quarterback should need to run IMO. All this talk about how there is only 1 ball to go around between JK and McCall and KJ and Campbell and Victor and Weber and Dixon and Mack and..... we basically have 6-7 starting caliber receivers and 2-3 starting caliber backs. So why would they be selecting the qb based on who can take the ball out of their hands rather than the best guy at getting them the ball?

 

[Hstead]

In the college game, I still want a QB that can run the football to even the numbers in the box. Saban has had to adapt and use a running QB as well. Nearly every good college football team has a dual threat QB. Uga may be the closest thing to a more pro offense with less QB runs.

If you guys thought defenses foeced JT to carry the ball on the read option, just wait when Haskins tries to run it. Defenses will absolutely dare him to run every play and two guys will be assigned to the RB vs just one. They will not let our RBs hurt them. It will be a disaster. Same with the RPO. We will be playing more 10 on 11.

I believe Burrow makes our backs better. He will have to be at least accounted for in the run game. Teams will still play the give, but Joe can definitely hurt you badly with his legs.

I still think it is going to be incredibly tight in the fall. With a big "if" we have both guys on the roster in the fall, which I hope we do.