2008 tOSU WR discussion (official thread)

[Sportsbuck28]

I thought Robo and Hartline were ready to take that next step. They had great 1st years and Hartline got rave reviews during the offseason. They haven't done much of anything yet. Where's Taurian Washington? He's been invisible. Flash? Things haven't turned out the way I expected them to. Ray's improved attitude and toughness has been the lone bright spot.

They've played 2 games against cupcake teams with the offense as vanilla as it gets... I don't think you can make a judgement on things yet.

 

[OregonBuckeye]

They've played 2 games against cupcake teams with the offense as vanilla as it gets... I don't think you can make a judgement on things yet.

I'm not writing them off. I'm just very disappointed thus far. You mentioned it; they've played two cupcakes. Even with vanilla playcalling I expected them to be just plain superior.

 

[RB07OSU]

I'm not writing them off. I'm just very disappointed thus far. You mentioned it; they've played two cupcakes. Even with vanilla playcalling I expected them to be just plain superior.

I'm with you. Vanilla playcalls or not, the lack of seperation we are getting is flat out depressing. The fact that they haven't got open against YSU or Ohio is ridiculous. As you mentioned, Ray Small has been the only positive in our WR corp. Robiskie and Hartline aren't getting open at all...Boeckman is taking coverage sacks because of them, when our OL is blocking pretty well (most of the time). Then when Todd throws them the ball, a defender is draped all over them even when they catch it. Add on to the fact that they didn't even catch balls that were on the money last game and you can't help but be greatly disappointed. I think Flash and Posey need some more PT if these guys don't start getting open. If these guys don't really step up their game against USC, our offense is going to get ugly, with Beanie or no Beanie.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

If these guys don't really step up their game against USC, our offense is going to get ugly, with Beanie or no Beanie.

Yep. This is a perfect example where the passing game will have to set up the running game. If our WRs get shut down, USC will stack the box and even Beanie won't get squat.

 

[osugrad21]

The lack of separation thing is bull...

That has become a catchphrase amongst the internet posters.

What exactly is separation in a zone? When do we see separation?

Zone reads are based on choices...what does the read defender do and where do I need to put this ball?

WRs were open...they did not make plays. People want to see "WIDE OPEN" but it does not exist unless there is blown coverage...usually, "open" means a step or two...

 

[Born Buckeye]

I agree that the WR need to make plays as far as catching the ball better, but lack of separation not only comes from zones but from being able to pull away from or lose a defender in man to man using jukes, cuts and flat out speed.

Defensive backs will continue to sit on the underneath stuff until we prove that we can beat them deep, we need to put a burner in there and run a deep post every once in a while to keep them honest.

 

[osugrad21]

I agree that the WR need to make plays as far as catching the ball better, but lack of separation not only comes from zones but from being able to pull away from or lose a defender in man to man using jukes, cuts and flat out speed.

What jukes? A post pattern usually consists on 5-7 hard strides (depending whether you are counting steps or yards) and a hard break to the post.

All routes usually include a hard sell of the stem and a sharp cut to the route.

Where is this juking and losing defenders?

In a 3 step drop, there aren't many options...it is based on timing...the 5-7 step drops equal longer routes and again, timing.

There are man routes and zone routes..."Check with me" is all too common now. WRs better read the defense as well as the QB

 

[GrizzlyBuck]

Grad, you are obviously much more knowledgeable than most on here (myself included) what do you see as the problem with getting the ball to the WR's the last few weeks?

Vanilla play calling (too predictable) ?

TB's holding on to the ball too long and not being in rhythm?

O-line not letting TB get comfortable enough to go through his progressions?

All I know is that when TB does throw the ball very far down field, the WR's seem to be covered pretty well (often times by multiple defenders) or like on Sat, our veteran WR's have a case of the dropsies.

 

[RB07OSU]

The lack of separation thing is bull...

That has become a catchphrase amongst the internet posters.

What exactly is separation in a zone? When do we see separation?

Zone reads are based on choices...what does the read defender do and where do I need to put this ball?

WRs were open...they did not make plays. People want to see "WIDE OPEN" but it does not exist unless there is blown coverage...usually, "open" means a step or two...

I was speaking of man coverage. I can remember RoBo and Hartline going deep and having defenders plastered all over them. Last year, I remember RoBo having a couple steps on that Washington defender and it was the defender just getting beat. I realize that wide open is not a common happening, but it seems we don't even have a step on anyone, other than Ray Small. It seemed Ohio ran alot of Cover 2 (or some type of zone) but there were times against either YSU or Ohio that they ran some man coverage (it looked like soft man, not press) and there was nothing there. However, I do agree we were open and just plain dropped passes against OU, but either way, our WR's have underperformed greatly thus far imo. Even in blocking...that screen pass to Posey was a wonderful playcall if a WR would have blocked it up right. He didn't even take a step before he got hit. Florida's WR's did an outstanding job of blocking on their screen plays. It just seems we have a lot of growing to do in many areas.

Edit: Second GrizzlyBuck's notion...it does seem to be a combination of those. However, it seems we are hardly ever "open" (a step or two), let alone "wide open".

 

[osugrad21]

Grad, you are obviously much more knowledgeable than most on here (myself included) what do you see as the problem with getting the ball to the WR's the last few weeks?

Vanilla play calling (too predictable) ?

TB's holding on to the ball too long and not being in rhythm?

O-line not letting TB get comfortable enough to go through his progressions?.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Snowball.

Prime example...the fade to Small in the endzone was the correct read but the route was off. Therefore, it looks like great coverage and a poorly thrown ball.

 

[osugrad21]

I was speaking of man coverage. .

How much man are we discussing when you just said how much zone you saw?

Here is something for the casual fan...most zones are a man coverage. If there is a threat in your zone, you matchup tight and count on the safety coming in as the KO.

 

[GrizzlyBuck]

Here is something for the casual fan....

Grad I consider myself much more than the casual fan, rabid, approaching stupid at times, my knowledge on the other hand is far below casual

Thanks for helping us armchair backup water boy QB's learn a little more about the game we love.

 

[RB07OSU]

How much man are we discussing when you just said how much zone you saw?

Here is something for the casual fan...most zones are a man coverage. If there is a threat in your zone, you matchup tight and count on the safety coming in as the KO.

I just meant when I saw RoBo and Hartline getting locked down the corner was in their hip pocket and not backpedaling a mile first. All I know (which obviously you know more than me with my 0 years of coaching) is that when my team ran cover 3 zone, we only got in a WR's hip pocket later on in the route usually, if it were a deep route like a streak or fade (which is the route RoBo and Hartline were running both times when I saw it, with no apparent safety help). When we ran a cover 2 zone, we had the corners playing a more shallow zone with the safeties covering the deep hashes and some LB help. When we ran press or a "soft man" coverage, if a WR ran a fade, you got on their hip asap. There was a difference for our team in a soft man and say a cover 3. To me, it appeared the DB's were playing some type of man coverage in the instances that disappointed me. When TB got sacked on a coverage sack, I have no idea what coverage they were running though.

 

[osugrad21]

Grad I consider myself much more than the casual fan, rabid, approaching stupid at times, my knowledge on the other hand is far below casual

Thanks for helping us armchair backup water boy QB's learn a little more about the game we love.

In all seriousness, whatever you guys want to discuss is fair game...in fact, if you have requests for additional blogs like the 3-3-5 blog I did, let me know. If I don't know it well enough, I know people who do and can get that info out.

 

[osugrad21]

I just meant when I saw RoBo and Hartline getting locked down the corner was in their hip pocket and not backpedaling a mile first. All I know (which obviously you know more than me with my 0 years of coaching) is that when my team ran cover 3 zone, we only got in a WR's hip pocket later on in the route usually, if it were a deep route like a streak or fade (which is the route RoBo and Hartline were running both times when I saw it, with no apparent safety help). When we ran a cover 2 zone, we had the corners playing a more shallow zone with the safeties covering the deep hashes and some LB help. When we ran press or a "soft man" coverage, if a WR ran a fade, you got on their hip asap. There was a difference for our team in a soft man and say a cover 3. To me, it appeared the DB's were playing some type of man coverage in the instances that disappointed me. When TB got sacked on a coverage sack, I have no idea what coverage they were running though.

There are variations of 2...squat/hard/press 2 brings a DB holding outside leverage right up on the line. He will attack and ride while funneling inside. He "hangs" until he sees another threat cross his face (TE, back, QB). It is a tough defense against a basic pro set or double TE set.

The 2 you are describing should never allow a fade...the outside should be cutoff immediately.