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2008 Buckeye Football Season

Jaxbuck;1200804; said:
The few times they got pushed around seemed to coincide with playing a decent team.

If you want to let stats mostly compiled against the sisters of the poor make you feel like the interior DL play was good then don't let me stop you. If you want to look at what Illinois and LSU did to us then I don't see how anyone can be anything less than concerned. They seemed less than impressed with our #3 rank against the run.

Name me one team that didn't have one bad game defensively last year. USC was the most consistently good D last year and they returned 10 starters from the year before. There will be huge improvements this year. Bank on it.
 
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OregonBuckeye;1200810; said:
There will be huge improvements this year. Bank on it.


Lets hope so because we are going to need it. However, like I said originally, I saw nothing in the spring game that looked anything remotely close to "huge" improvement. Denlinger looked good, the other 3 did not.

I remain skeptical untill I see it on the field against USC and Wisconsin.
 
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Jaxbuck;1200814; said:
Lets hope so because we are going to need it. However, like I said originally, I saw nothing in the spring game that looked anything remotely close to "huge" improvement. Denlinger looked good, the other 3 did not.

Meh, it's a spring game. Plenty of people noted significant progress throughout spring practices. Players like Bam Childress have taught us well that spring games aren't always an indicator of what's to come in the season.
 
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OregonBuckeye;1200823; said:
Meh, it's a spring game. Plenty of people noted significant progress throughout spring practices. Players like Bam Childress have taught us well that spring games aren't always an indicator of what's to come in the season.


No they aren't everything but not being able to push around guys who won't even be in the 2 deep this fall on top of a dissapointing '07 leaves me wondering what the optimisim is based on besides just blind hope.

I'm not saying they won't get better but I'm suprised at how many people are taking a leap from sub par to NC caliber play from the position as a given.

I guess I should have been from Missouri, they have to show me.
 
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I've always been of the opinion that the spring game should be looked at as a starting point, not used as a projector of the coming season. It's only 3 months after the end of the previous season. It gives you an indicator of areas that need improvement/special attention.

As for the DT's, I'm one of the crowd that thinks we'll see a significant improvement. Few things are better than experience, and these guys gained a lot last year. Not jut regular old experience, but big game experience. I don't expect an '01-'02 improvement, but enough improvement to not be considered a "weakness".
 
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Jaxbuck;1200804; said:
The few times they got pushed around seemed to coincide with playing a decent team.

If you want to let stats mostly compiled against the sisters of the poor make you feel like the interior DL play was good then don't let me stop you. If you want to look at what Illinois and LSU did to us then I don't see how anyone can be anything less than concerned. They seemed less than impressed with our #3 rank against the run.

Actually, two of the highest rushing totals by opponents were against Washington and KSU, not exactly decent teams. Furthermore, the only traditional running attacks that had any success were LSU and PSU. Most of UW yards were on QB scrambles, and Locker is a great talent. KSU's Jarvis is mostly an outside runner, you can't blame the DTs for not tackling a guy 10 yds away. Illinois ran a spread option, which is geared to create individual matchups and put the ball carrier in space.

The traditional running game powerhouses: UW, MSU, and UM did next to nothing against us (yes, I know PJ Hill didn't play). PSU had good rushing numbers, but after the first drive were largely ineffective. Those are also the teams that churn out good O-linemen every year. Against LSU, the D had more than one drive stopped, only to have a penalty reset the downs. The tigers had 49 rushing attempts, but only averaged 3.1 yds/att. Coincidentally, the 2002, 2003, and 2005 defenses also gave up the most rushing yards to the best rushing teams. It's basically expected. Last year's team didn't have a standout DT like K. Pete or Pitcock, but that doesn't mean that they were terrible. It's worth noting that from 2005 to 06, Pitcock's TFLs went from 3 to 12, and his sacks from 1 to 8. That's a huge improvement for one year. Most college athletes show marked improvement from year to year, especially at OSU.
 
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generaladm;1200859; said:
Actually, two of the highest rushing totals by opponents were against Washington and KSU, not exactly decent teams. Furthermore, the only traditional running attacks that had any success were LSU and PSU. Most of UW yards were on QB scrambles, and Locker is a great talent. KSU's Jarvis is mostly an outside runner, you can't blame the DTs for not tackling a guy 10 yds away. Illinois ran a spread option, which is geared to create individual matchups and put the ball carrier in space.

The traditional running game powerhouses: UW, MSU, and UM did next to nothing against us (yes, I know PJ Hill didn't play). PSU had good rushing numbers, but after the first drive were largely ineffective. Those are also the teams that churn out good O-linemen every year. Against LSU, the D had more than one drive stopped, only to have a penalty reset the downs. The tigers had 49 rushing attempts, but only averaged 3.1 yds/att. Coincidentally, the 2002, 2003, and 2005 defenses also gave up the most rushing yards to the best rushing teams. It's basically expected. Last year's team didn't have a standout DT like K. Pete or Pitcock, but that doesn't mean that they were terrible. It's worth noting that from 2005 to 06, Pitcock's TFLs went from 3 to 12, and his sacks from 1 to 8. That's a huge improvement for one year. Most college athletes show marked improvement from year to year, especially at OSU.


and if they fail again this year I'm sure people will find a way to rationalize it similar to the way you just did.

Teams don't run off the last 8 minutes of the 4th quarter against you because your DL is kicking ass. I don't care what the YPC was, LSU ran when they wanted to and we couldn't stop them. Teams don't run 49 times because you are stuffing them.

The interior DL play was substandard last year. I expect it to get better. I'm just not ready to take a monumental leap forward as a given untill I see it with my own two eyes against a team with a pulse.
 
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Jaxbuck;1200881; said:
and if they fail again this year I'm sure people will find a way to rationalize it similar to the way you just did.

Teams don't run off the last 8 minutes of the 4th quarter against you because your DL is kicking ass. I don't care what the YPC was, LSU ran when they wanted to and we couldn't stop them. Teams don't run 49 times because you are stuffing them.

The interior DL play was substandard last year. I expect it to get better. I'm just not ready to take a monumental leap forward as a given untill I see it with my own two eyes against a team with a pulse.

I don't have to rationalize that having the 3rd best run defense in the league doesn't equal failure. I also don't have to rationalize that stopping the run is not the sole responsibility of the DTs. Watch the Illinois game again and count the number of times that Freeman had Juice dead to rights and then froze in his tracks when a pitch was either made or faked. There's a reason that good LBs make over 100 tackles a season and the best DTs are lucky to hit 40. If an LB blows his assignment, it's nobody's fault but his. The problem in the LSU game was that even when we did stuff the run, someone took a stupid penalty and gave them four more downs. Tell you what, if you stop saying ridiculous things like "The DL last year was as bad against the run as we have seen in ages", I'll stop "rationalizing" reasons why that's obviously not true.
 
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generaladm;1200903; said:
Tell you what, if you stop saying ridiculous things like "The DL last year was as bad against the run as we have seen in ages", I'll stop "rationalizing" reasons why that's obviously not true.

Whatever.

I know what I saw and I know how much I trust the judgement of some who see the team practice and have said the same thing.
 
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This is really coming down to an optimist/pessimist thing. Every pessimist prefers the term realist, so let's not get hung up on terminology...

The point is, we all agree that the DL needs to improve. The sticking points are how much improvement is needed.

  1. I have already stated that a little improvement can go a long way. Quinn's 4x improved stats over the years didn't come from getting 4 times as strong, they came from the incremental improvement that comes with experience.
  2. Very little has been said about the difference in minutes played that I posted. Take a look at it. These guys were incredibly green last year and it showed when they faced good competition for the first time. I don't find that surprising.
  3. This defense gave up 3 rushing touchdowns last year. No other defense has matched that in the last 7 years. Terrible rush defenses don't do that, even against bad competition; and every team has had a favorable schedule at some point in the past 7 years. But no one else has done that. No one.
  4. Ohio State has given up the fewest aggregate yards per carry over the last 7 years. That's for all BCS teams; not just the Big Ten. (TCU of the Mtn West is the only team in I-A ahead of OSU in defensive ypc over the last 7 years)
Truthfully, I think point number 4 is a big part of the problem here. What (some) OSU fans call terrible defense, other teams can only aspire to.

We wouldn't be ranked #1 if other teams didn't have the occasional bad game vs. the run. LSU had one of the best DLs I've ever seen last year, and they had a few bad days. USC has great DL talent, but they're going to have a very bad day on September 13th. It comes around, but it goes around too.
 
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Jaxbuck;1200834; said:
I'm not saying they won't get better but I'm suprised at how many people are taking a leap from sub par to NC caliber play from the position as a given.

Can you please define NC caliber play? Does that mean best in the nation or good enough not to fuck up our chances at an NC?
 
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OregonBuckeye;1200942; said:
Can you please define NC caliber play? Does that mean best in the nation or good enough not to fuck up our chances at an NC?

Interesting question.

How many times in '02 did we hear that there was no way that we could win an NC with Krenzel at quarterback?

How many times did we hear that we'd never win an NC with THAT offensive line?

I honestly believe that our '02 OL was one of the worst OLs to ever win a national championship. Against good teams that got no push whatsoever.
 
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I agree that our DT play is the weak link on the defense, and it's why I'd like to land Corey Adams to go alongside Simon. Now, the D as a whole is generally pretty solid, so saying that the DTs are the weak link is not as damning as it may sound. But I agree with Jax that there were literally times last season when the DTs just got stood up for entire series and allowed for 4-6 yards a carry. I don't see any of our DTs being worthy of a double team, and I certainly wouldn't have faith in them being doubled and holding their ground to clog the middle. It would also be nice to see the DTs actually get some pressure on the QB from time to time. Our DTs are serviceable, but for a board full of posters who seem to carry the phrase "games are won in the trenches" like a mantra, I'm surprised there's not a bit more criticism of the DT play. Again, this is why I see Corey Adams as biggest potential get for us outside of Berry. Hopefully the DTs will continue to progress and I'll spend the '08 season with egg all over my face.
 
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