2002 vs. 2007

[Brutus1]

QB- 02
RB- 07 (depth)
WR- 07
TE- push
FB- push
OL- '07
DL- '02 no brainer but '07 playing unexpectedly well
LB- '07
DB- '07- not sure why all the love for '02. Doss, while great, had trouble in coverage. Nickey and Fox sometimes took bad angles and or missed tackles.
"02 was giving up 280yds passing and 80 yds rushing per game, after 6 games.
K- '02
P-'02

 

[Jaxbuck]

I'd take the '07 secondary over the '02 secondary in a heart beat. Doss and Nickey were terrible in pass coverage. They were better vs the run but not so much so as to negate how much more athletic, fast and capable of playing well in space the current group is.


I don't think you can make a fair comparison between the 2 squads untill the season is over. The power of hindsight gives a huge advantage to '02.

 

[jlb1705]

The 2002 season has been completely mythologized. People seem to remember the trophy and the celebration, and forget the very real issues and limitations that team had. The fact that they were able to overcome those things to go undefeated and win the title was amazing and has to count for something if you're trying to compare then and now, but to say that 2007 is not as good because you haven't seen those intangibles is not fair to this year's team because they haven't had those same limitations in their path. I think the fact that they don't have those limitations in the first place is a plus, and it serves to me as evidence that this year's edition is better equipped to make a title run than the 2002 team was. Will they end up with the same result? That remains to be seen. I think this year's team has faced shorter odds from the outset in the pursuit of a national championship.

My view on this is reflected in my choices for who I'd take unit by unit. The only units I'd take from 2002 over this year's edition without hesitation are DL and PK. FB and TE I think are a push. For everything else I'd take the units on this year's team.

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of individual players on that 2002 team that wouldn't have a place on this year's team - Mike Doss comes to mind immediately. He was the heart and soul of that team - but the secondary as a whole is much better now than it was then. There is better depth and it is better in coverage. I can down the line on some of the other units - on the whole I think this is a much better situation than it was during the 2002 season.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Sims did start at LT.

Mangold played at C as well. Alex Stepanovich moved over to guard so Nick could get on the field...

i didn;t want to chime in but, here goes nothing.

QB. Krenzel. clutch as hell. Boeckman might have better passing skills, but the jury is out regarding intangibles.

OL: '07. we had no depth in '02. we started a walk-on.

RB: '07. again. quality depth

WR: '07. am i beginning to sound redundant? Jenkins was a beast, Vance had some big grabs, but Gamble's production fell off as the season progressed and he started concentrating more and more on defense. i think Robo, Hartline, and Small trump Jenkins.

as far as TEs go, in 2002 we had Hartsock and who else? this year we have Nicol and Ballard, WHO BOTH START. we've opened in the silver package for the last four games, Jake has won the Parker award multiple times, and both guys can catch. go figure, depth alone gives '07 the edge.

DL: '02. though '07 has been a pleasant surprise, we're not getting pressure on the QB without blitzing. Tim Anderson making Miami's center go from Rimington Award winner to undrafted free agent in one game is the trump card.

LB: umm... how is this a question? Wilhelm was a BEAST, and Cie provided great pass coverage, but we have that beast in Animal, and Marcus Freeman can cover like nobody's business... and i haven't even mentioned Larry Grant, Ross Homan, Curtis Terry, Austin Spitler, Brian Rolle, Tyler Moeller, or Thaddeus Gibson, who have ALL played.

DB: Doss gets the love, but come on. Nickey was good at free safety, and Gamble helped TREMENDOUSLY, but no one will be comparing Donald Washington to Dustin Fox (who is underrated and only got beat deep for a TD once in his career) any time soon. the comparison is more likely to be to Ahmed Plummer. Jenkins, Checkwa, Russel, Coleman... case closed.

PK: NUUUUUUUUUUGE. hands down.

P: Groom. remember his 70 yard punts against Wiscy and Penn State? remember his 63 yard punt on the opening possession of the Fiesta Bowl? AJ Trapasso is good, damn good, but Groom could have been the MVP. he was a HUGE part of '02's outstanding efficiency stats.

 

[Yertle]

Awesome thread topic!!! Who gave you the idea? Because I know you couldn't have pulled this one out of your smelly ass.

Quarterback: 2002 - Craig Krenzel - Most of this has to do with his ability to win the clutch games at Purdue, at Illinois, Michigan, and then the NC game. Who knows what TB still has in store for him.

Running Back: 2007 - Chris Wells, Maurice Wells, Brandon Saine - interesting similarities between Beanie and MoC - dominating youngsters with injury problems. Saine puts this group over the top though.

Fullback: 2002 - Branden Joe, Brandon Schnittker - Joe was one of the best FB's I've seen at Ohio State. Very underrated.

Wide Receiver: 2002 - Michael Jenkins, Chris Gamble, Chris Vance - Very tough one!!! Can't really lose with either one, but Small isn't proven enough yet.

Tight End: 2007 - Rory Nicol - Neither are all-world, but I'd go with Nicol.

Offensive Line: 2007 - Alex Boone, Steve Rehring, Jim Cordle, Ben Person, Kirk Barton - I think this year's line is playing a bit better than 2002's line, and it has potential to be MUCH better.

Defensive Line: 2002 - Darrion Scott, Tim Anderson, Kenny Peterson, Will Smith - WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!! Those are 8 of the greatest D-linemen to ever play college football. The 2002 d-line won the NC for us though, so I could never vote against them.

Linebackers: 2007 - Marcus Freeman, James Laurinaitis, Larry Grant - Wilhelm is one of the all-time greats, but Freeman and Grant are proving to be on the same scale as Laurinaitis.

Defensive Backs: 2002 - Dustin Fox, Chris Gamble, Donnie Nickey, Mike Doss, Will Allen - Gamble and Doss are just too dominating to lose this comparison. Jenkins and DWash are fantastic, but they still lose this one.

Kicker: 2002 - Mike Nugent - duh. (No offense, Ryan)

Punter: 2002 - Andy Groom - duh again (no offense, AJ)

That gives 2002 a total of 7 votes, and 2007 a total of 4 votes (only 1 on defense).

 

[BrutusBobcat]

There's a similar discussion in this thread, but not with the player-by-player detail:

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/buckeye-football/602370-back-rollercoaster.html

 

[Gatorubet]

I'd take the '07 secondary over the '02 secondary in a heart beat. Doss and Nickey were terrible in pass coverage. They were better vs the run but not so much so as to negate how much more athletic, fast and capable of playing well in space the current group is.


I don't think you can make a fair comparison between the 2 squads untill the season is over. The power of hindsight gives a huge advantage to '02.

Yeah Jax. Seems like an opponent versus opponent comparison for the respective years would be in order too...

 

[martinss01]

since several have asked the question, i suppose we could start the debate by asking a few more. like asking coleman what its like to get your ankles broken in the open field by a tailback and fall flat on your ass in front of the coaching staff? or, we could ask russell what its like to throw a shoulder into purdues te and watch him bounce off, run for a first down, then an additional 10 yards. or we could ask jenkins what our best lock down corner is doing playing safety. oh, its a "scheme" thing... probably thought up by the same people who felt ginn should be moved to cb because a lockdown cb is more valueable than anyone else on the field.

i don't generally watch the safetys that close. but i have the games taped and have little doubt i could go back and find tons of errors made. im more than happy to consceed they are primarily mental mistakes. but that doesn't change the situation. right now we are weak at safety. you don't stick your best cover corner back there if your not. we don't have much in the way of experience so we are slanting our strength to protect our weakness. but lets at least call it like it is.

at the end of the year i think this will be a legit debate. by this time next year it will probably be a very interesting one. but not now, not yet. they are far too green to be compaired with two of the better safties to come out of tOSU.

 

[lvbuckeye]

we could ask Mike Doss how it felt to get dragged into the end zone by Roscoe Parrish...

the '02 safeties might have been better in run support, but there is NO comparison in pass coverage. the '07 secondary is giving up 80 fewer passing yards per game, and fewer total yards per game than '02 allowed through the air alone.

 

[martinss01]

we could ask Mike Doss how it felt to get dragged into the end zone by Roscoe Parrish...

rofl! we absolutely could .

the '02 safeties might have been better in run support, but there is NO comparison in pass coverage. the '07 secondary is giving up 80 fewer passing yards per game, and fewer total yards per game than '02 allowed through the air alone.

one could argue that such stats have more to do with the fact that jenkins, washington, and checkwa > fox and gamble. not to mention gamble not only wasn't the cb for half the season, but also played special teams and offense. which seriously stunted his growth as a cb. and as gator mentioned, compairing the opponents is important as well.

don't get me wrong, i realize im deep into nitpicking territory here. what they did to purdon't was VERY impressive. but then, when you start talking about compairing a d to one that won a nc on d alone... nitpicking comes with the territory .

 

[Jaxbuck]

Yeah Jax. Seems like an opponent versus opponent comparison for the respective years would be in order too...

yes, when the smoke clears and we see what the 2007 team accomplished.

As it stands right now it would take some serious work to say anything but 2002 SOS > 2007 SOS by a substantial margin.

TT was iirc Texas state champ that year(beat A&M and UT)
WSU was Pac 10 champ and a BCS team
UC was a Bowl team
Wisky, Minny, Purdue, PSU and tsun were all Bowl teams

so thats 8 of the 13 regular season games we played were vs eventual Bowl teams and all but UC and PSU won their Bowl games iirc.

Not to mention the Miami team we played was one of the most talented you will ever see in CFB. No disrespect to any other teams this year but no one is as scary looking as UM was all of 2002.

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

...not to mention the fact that the Big 10 was fairly strong in 2002. The conference went 5-2 in bowls that year IIRC.

 

[RugbyBuck]

2002 - Defensive line, kicker, punter.

2007 - Everything else.

We just barely made it past the Bearcats in '02. I love the 2002 Buckeyes, but this is a better team.

 

[Oh8ch]

Not to dodge the original question, but I think what separates these two teams isn't listed in the initial post. It is the depth of 2007 that makes this squad clearly superior.

When MoC went out dinged up in 2003 we were sweating. Now we have Saine. And even MoW is doing better than Ross.

Mangold got lots of reps on the OL not because he was brilliant (which he was) so much as because we were desperate. Douglas, Clarke and Bishop were walking wounded all season and there was nothing but true Frosh behind them.

Homan and Gibson could have battled the starting LBs in '02 for PT. Last week they were MIA and it wasn't even noticeable. Robert Reynolds would struggle to make the two deep on this years team. Our 4th LB on the '02 squad was Fred Pagac. I loved Freddie. But can you imagine him trying to compete on this squad?

Same goes for the secondary. Gamble was moved to DB when McNutt went down because we were out of options. When is the last time somebody said "if only Andre Amos were healthy!". Amos is great. But where would we put him?

The 2002 season has been completely mythologized.

2002 was a miracle team. We beat a 7-6 Purdue team on a miracle play. We escaped by the skin of our teeth against a 7-7 Cincy team. In all we won a total of six regular season games that could have been lost on a single play including four games against teams who lost 6 or more times that season.

That was an unforgettable season, but the myth comes into play when we talk about that team as though they were dominant. They were not. A couple of solid non-conference wins early, but the last seven games of the season we won only one game by more than a TD.

Through six games '07 has yet to be challenged. They have dominated every opponent without exception.

We have yet to play those last 7 games. But it will be different and it will be because of the depth.

 

[WaitingforKickoff]

First of all, great topic. Beyond the personnel, the depth, the coaches, the schedule, the road games, and even luck, what truly sets the '02 team apart is that everyone on that team played every down, from the opening tackle by Carpenter to the last pressuring of Dorsey, like they knew they were going to be the champs. They played like they were entitled to the title, as if some great injustice would have occurred if they lost. And when you play with that type of attitude, you get up from that bone-crushing sack a couple of seconds faster than you normally would, you go for over 110 plays a game even though your body really allows for 100, and you pick up that first down on fourth and forever as cool as a cucumber when the other team is already celebrating on their side of the field. Every team is hungry, but championshhip caliber hunger can't be taught. You either have it or you don't. This team shows a lot of promise from an athletic point of view, and I hope they have the hunger to go with that as well.