Yankee-Killers

[Brutus1]

Brutus1: "Surprisingly Jeter is batting .219 against the Sox in that time period. Not the Mendoza, but pretty darn close. I tend to believe it's more a matter of hitting against Schilling and Pedro being the reason and not the beanings. Against this current crop of Boston pitchers he's hitting .265. His avg last year against them was a Mendoza-like .200."

Now that Brutus has shoved this in your face, what's the explanation??

Actually , I wasn't shoving, I was just noting that he hasn't hit very well against Schilling or Pedro in the last 4 or 5 years. Something like below the Mendoza line. I think that may have more to do with his avg against the RS. Alot of good hitters have struggled against those 2.

 

[Sloopy45]

Brutus1: "Actually , I wasn't shoving, I was just noting that he hasn't hit very well against Schilling or Pedro in the last 4 or 5 years. Something like below the Mendoza line. I think that may have more to do with his avg against the RS. Alot of good hitters have struggled against those 2."

Schilling hasn't been on the Red Sox for 3 years. In fact, I think he only pitched against the Yankees twice in the regular season last year. Maybe Sears can correct me on this if I'm wrong. If Jeter's average is any indicator, its a very small sample size vs. Schilling in '04.

And as far as Pedro is concerned, he's the # 1 culprit in the beanballs.

 

[Brutus1]

Schilling hasn't been on the Red Sox for 3 years. In fact, I think he only pitched against the Yankees twice in the regular season last year. Maybe Sears can correct me on this if I'm wrong. If Jeter's average is any indicator, its a very small sample size vs. Schilling in '04.

And as far as Pedro is concerned, he's the # 1 culprit in the beanballs.

He was 0-10 against Schill last year, and 3-13 vs Pedro. My point was that Jeter has not hit very well against either, regardless of where Schilling pitched. Good hitters tend to bat like that against both of them, regardless of wether they got beaned or not. It's no coincidence that he's hitting better this year against the Sox. No Schilling or Pedro to have to step in against.

 

[Sloopy45]

Brutus1: "It's no coincidence that he's hitting better this year against the Sox. No Schilling or Pedro to have to step in against."

No question about it. But what if he owned Schilling or Pedro, was hit, and stopped hitting them. That's the whole point of this conversation.

Would you brush off the beaning and solely attribute it to a decline, or could you surmise that it had something to do with being hit?

BTW, I can't get year by year stats on Piazza/Clemens, but the lifetime stats are as follows:

19 AB, 8 H, 1 2B, 4 HR, 10 RBI, 2 BB, 2 K, .421 AVG, .500 OBP, 1.105 SLG.

In the 2000 World Series, he was 0 for 3 against the Rocket.

Brutus, where are you getting these year by year stats? That's definately a site I have to check out.

 

[Misanthrope]

BuckeyeNation27: "ill go out on a limb and guess better pitching?"

Not possible. Go back and read Bitchandmope's posts. Its not possible for Jeter to hit .200 against the Red Sox unless he is on the decline, like Piazza was against Clemens.

I'd call you a liar if I thought your mischaracterization of what I said was actually intentional, and not a result of your limited comprehension skills. So instead, I'll re-post what I said earlier, for the benefit of those with the intelligence to grasp it.

Meanwhile, (Jeter)'s batting .291 overall (.292 last year), meaning he's still hitting about .300 against the rest of the league (he's a career .314 hitter). This is what distinguishes him from the Mike Piazza example.

Jeter has been struggling against Boston; Piazza has been struggling against everyone. This is why the argument of how the Sox are pitching Jeter is affecting him makes sense, and the notion that Clemens ruined Piazza's career in 2000/01 is asinine.

A turnip can figure out why Piazza's numbers have declined - for the same reason virtually ALL players tend to decline as they approach the end of their career - age and diminishing skills, often exacerbated by injuries.

 

[Brutus1]

MLB.com

pitcher vs. batter

 

[thenumber7]

Thanks for the info Brutus it was really interesting to peruse the stats for myself once I saw the avg you posted. I got similar info at yahoo.com->MLB->stats-> batter vs. pitcher. I just know that as a Sox fan, there is no other yankee hitter I fear more in the clutch than Jeter. (Some of the other Sox fans on the board might disagree.) Maybe that's why I felt that he does so well against them.

It's no coincidence that he's hitting better this year against the Sox. No Schilling or Pedro to have to step in against.

As they say: good pitching beats good hitting. Also, we'll see what the final 10 meetings of the season do to his avg. If Schilling ever comes back the numbers should go down (based on the stats of course ).

 

[Brutus1]

As an A's fan , I'm not too fond of the Yanks or the Red Sox, but I love to watch them play each other.

I thought this sounded a little off so I checked it out. The A's did not break the $5 mill barrier with Canseco. He only made over 5 Mill 2 years in his career: 94 and 95 with the Rangers and Red Sox respectively. Actually, Ruben Sierra was the first to $5mill in 1992. Also in '92, Danny Tartabull (Yankees) and Bobby Bonilla (Mets) also mad over 5mill. Bonilla actually made 6mill.

All that said, Cansucko still made over $40 Million dollars in his career. If he's broke, then that's just too bad.

 

[Sloopy45]

Bitchandmope: "I'd call you a liar if I thought your mischaracterization of what I said was actually intentional, and not a result of your limited comprehension skills. So instead, I'll re-post what I said earlier, for the benefit of those with the intelligence to grasp it."

Yadda, yadda, yadda .. lets get back to the meat & potatoes of this conversation. No more stupidity about lifetime stats or any of this garbage.

Mike Piazza vs. Roger Clemens, pre-beaning:

12 AB, 7 H, 1 2B, 3 HR, 9 RBI, 0 BB, .583 AVG

Mike Piazza vs. Roger Clemens, post-beaning (includes 2000 Post-season):

10 AB, 1 R, 1 H, 1 HR, 1 RBI, 2 BB, .100 AVG

You're right. Getting hit in the head had no difference regarding Piazza's production against Clemens. Case closed. Shut up.

thenumber7: "there is no other yankee hitter I fear more in the clutch than Jeter"

You're a smart man. Matsui is probably the biggest Red Sox killer on the Yankees tho'.

Brutus1: "The A's did not break the $5 mill barrier with Canseco. He only made over 5 Mill 2 years in his career: 94 and 95 with the Rangers and Red Sox respectively."

The A's signed him to that deal, Brutus.

 

[Misanthrope]

Bitchandmope: "I'd call you a liar if I thought your mischaracterization of what I said was actually intentional, and not a result of your limited comprehension skills. So instead, I'll re-post what I said earlier, for the benefit of those with the intelligence to grasp it."

Yadda, yadda, yadda .. lets get back to the meat & potatoes of this conversation. No more stupidity about lifetime stats or any of this garbage.

Yadda, yadda, my ass...not so fast, asshole.

It's bad enough you continue perpetuating a ridiculous argument, but it's another thing altogether when you attribute something to another poster, that they never said, and don't have the balls to own up to your mistake. That is either stupid, childish, dishonest or a combination of the three, and I have little time to waste on people of such low caliber.

Grow up...

 

[Sloopy45]

Bitchandmope: "It's bad enough you continue perpetuating a ridiculous argument, but it's another thing altogether when you attribute something to another poster, that they never said, and don't have the balls to own up to your mistake."

Fine. I misinterpreted Brutus' post. My mistake. I apologize. His intentions may have been different, but it still proves my point.

The bottom line is this: my argument (in the very first place) is that the Yankees should throw at Ortiz. To back up that argument, I used the Piazza example. I've proven that point.

You (in a vain attempt) to shoot me down, gave some ridiculous lifetime Piazza stats, said that the beanballs had no effect on Jeter (until you realized that he's hit .200 & currently .265 against Boston since they started pelting him), and tried to put words in my mouth. You got shot down each time.

And just so there's no more arguments, let me say this: in 2004, Jeter hit .200 vs. Boston, .306 vs. everyone else (106 pts lower). In 2005, its .265 vs. Boston and .301 vs. everyone else (36 pts lower). But that can't be because he's getting pelted everytime up, can it? I won't make a definitve statement, so you draw your own stupid conclusion.

And one more thing: in the 2000 World Series (post-beaning), Piazza (as mentioned previously) was 0 for 3 against Clemens. When Clemens was taken out of the game, Piazza hit a two run bomb his very next AB.

Keep to your interesting Pirate threads, chump!

 

[FadeproofBuck]

Not sure if this has been talked about already becaue I didn't read through all the pages but here is my take:

The Yankees don't bean the guy because they can't, and it's because of the Red Sox batting order. First, with Damon and Renteria up 1-2, chances are that there's a runner on already, but if not, would you bean Ortiz and put him on 1st base to face Manny Ramirez?

Yankees, or any team, are in no position to give up free bases with that line-up that the BoSox have, you bean Ortiz, and you have to get through Manny, Nixon, and Varitek to get out of the inning if they are no outs.

Who is willing to take those odds? Only time you could bean him and give the Sox a free base is if your team is up big or losing big, and then he'll just brush it off as some sort of frustration tactic rather than making a statement.

Bea one power hitter, and you have the next 4 batters that are known to go skydancing up next, now is a solo shot or a 2 run shot worse?

 

[Sloopy45]

FadeproofBuck: "The Yankees don't bean the guy because they can't, and it's because of the Red Sox batting order."

I think you make a great point, and I've heard this same take from a lot of different people.

To me, I don't agree, and here's why:
1. If you don't hit Ortiz because of the factors that you mentioned, then its proving that you are indeed afraid of the middle of the Red Sox line-up & aren't confident that you can get them out. If that's the case, then you're mentally defeated, which is more than halfway to completely defeated.

2. Sometimes you must lose a battle to win the war. Lets say they hit Ortiz, and Varitek hits a 2 run bomb to win the game. I'd trade that game to ensure that Ortiz doesn't do as much damage in the future.

3. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander: Ortiz hits fourth. If you put him on base, you're facing the Red Sox 5-6-7 hitters next. The Red Sox haven't been afraid to hit Jeter (batting lead-off or 2nd) with Sheffield, Matsui, and A-Rod following him, so why be afraid of what the Red Sox have after Ortiz?

To me, sometimes you have to forget about the situations and throw your balls out there. If you don't do something to turn the tide, Boston (and most notably Ortiz) will continue to trample the Yankees).

 

[FadeproofBuck]

FadeproofBuck: "The Yankees don't bean the guy because they can't, and it's because of the Red Sox batting order."

I think you make a great point, and I've heard this same take from a lot of different people.

To me, I don't agree, and here's why:
1. If you don't hit Ortiz because of the factors that you mentioned, then its proving that you are indeed afraid of the middle of the Red Sox line-up & aren't confident that you can get them out. If that's the case, then you're mentally defeated, which is more than halfway to completely defeated.

2. Sometimes you must lose a battle to win the war. Lets say they hit Ortiz, and Varitek hits a 2 run bomb to win the game. I'd trade that game to ensure that Ortiz doesn't do as much damage in the future.

3. What's good for the Goose is good for the Gander: Ortiz hits fourth. If you put him on base, you're facing the Red Sox 5-6-7 hitters next. The Red Sox haven't been afraid to hit Jeter (batting lead-off or 2nd) with Sheffield, Matsui, and A-Rod following him, so why be afraid of what the Red Sox have after Ortiz?

To me, sometimes you have to forget about the situations and throw your balls out there. If you don't do something to turn the tide, Boston (and most notably Ortiz) will continue to trample the Yankees).

I wouldn't call it defeated, it's more like playing the odds. It;s tough to put someone on when you have 3 or 4 guys up next with over a .300 BA and are all homerun threats

I understand about the Red Sox beaning Jeter and Sheff and others in the middle of that lineup and taking a chance with the rest of them with runners on, but also remember that it's been Pdero and Schilling doing those beanings. Both of those guys have the confidence in themselves to get outs and they are tough to hit regardless of the situation, plus both of those pitchers have that a-hole mentality on the mound and will go after batters.

Yankees don't have a pitcher outside of Randy Johnson that they can feel confident in getting Nixon, Millar, and Varitek out. Pavano ahs struggled, Sterutze is a role player, Brown can't stay healthy, it's just a mess and if the Yankees do pop Ortiz or Manny, then likely they'll get burned by one of the next batters because they aren't nearly as good of pitchers as Pedro or Schilling is.

Yankees don't bean because they need to stay within themselves and play the odds of baseball, they put runners on and odds are bad results will occur.

 

[Sloopy45]

FadeproofBuck: "Yankees don't have a pitcher outside of Randy Johnson that they can feel confident in getting Nixon, Millar, and Varitek out. Pavano ahs struggled, Sterutze is a role player, Brown can't stay healthy, it's just a mess and if the Yankees do pop Ortiz or Manny, then likely they'll get burned by one of the next batters because they aren't nearly as good of pitchers as Pedro or Schilling is."

Hey, I agree with your points. Maybe I'm calling for a toughness that isn't there. Maybe its wishful thinking. But to let Ortiz keep killing you like this without trying something else is the worst alternative to me.

As it stands now, Ortiz is plating himself everytime against the Yanks. In that sense, its no different if you get a bomb from Ortiz & a bomb from Varitek or you hit Ortiz and Varitek hits a 2 run bomb. Its 2 runs either way. I'd rather take my chances with Varitek not hitting a home run than facing Ortiz.

Look at these numbers vs. the Yanks since '03 (including postseason):

57 G, 40 R, 74 H, 15 2B, 17 HR, 50 RBI, 26 BB, .335 AVG.

I mean, I agree with what you said about the Yanks' pitchers (Mussina wouldn't hit anybody under any circumstances). But enough is enough. Put him on his ass.