• New here? Register here now for access to all the forums, download game torrents, private messages, polls, Sportsbook, etc. Plus, stay connected and follow BP on Instagram @buckeyeplanet and Facebook.

Sounds like Casey is finaly gone

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes
DALLAS -- It's been the Reds' quest to get more pitching during the Winter Meetings. On Tuesday night, it appeared to have made the first move to meet their goal.

Several media outlets have reported that Cincinnati agreed to trade first baseman Sean Casey to the Pirates for left-handed pitcher Dave Williams.
Reds general manager Dan O'Brien would not confirm the rumor but Williams told MLB.com Tuesday night that Pirates GM Dave Littlefield contacted him about the pending transaction.
"He said thanks for all the hard work and we said our peace to each other," Williams said. "I'm waiting for the [Reds] GM to call."
"We have no announcement at this time," O'Brien said. "I'm well aware of the rumors. When it comes to specific transactions in this organization, until we have a finalized deal, we do not comment."
In 2005, Williams was 10-11 with a 4.41 ERA in a career-high 25 starts and 138 2/3 innings. He walked 58 and struck out 88 batters. He will earn $1.4 million next season in a one-year contract he signed with Pittsburgh in October.
"I'm excited about the [Cincinnati] lineup," Williams said. "Hopefully I can be a piece to the puzzle. Pitchers love offense."
The proposed deal is on hold until Williams can take a physical for the Reds, a source said. The pitcher had shoulder surgery for a torn labrum in 2002 and missed the entire 2003 season. He did not return to the big leagues again until August 2004.
With Casey set to make $8.5 million next season, the move would clear space on Cincinnati's payroll, and help the club make other potential deals this winter. It also allows the Reds to shift outfielder Adam Dunn to first base.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/winter_meetings/y2005/
Casey, who spent the past eight seasons with the Reds and was a popular player with fans and in the clubhouse, batted .312 with nine homers and 58 RBIs in 2005. The 31-year-old Pittsburgh area native is a lifetime .305 hitter.
The Reds rotation ranked last in the National League in ERA this year. The 26-year-old Williams is 17-26 with a 4.25 ERA over his four-year big-league career, all with the Pirates, an NL Central foe. "It's weird going to another team in our division," Williams said. "I'll work hard this offseason to be prepared and look forward to helping the Reds."
 
Upvote 0
Jt4prez said:
I like the deal. Casey wasnt a run producer, but was playing at a run producing spot. He was a slow first baseman that couldnt hit for power.

I think we save 6-7 million on this deal. We could use some of this money to help sign Dunn Long term. Hopefully the new ownership will open up their pockets and spend their money smartly on pitching.
Click to expand...

Well last year was a down year for Casey, but he still hit .312, tops on the Reds team. While Dunn hit a whopping .247.

The problem for Casey not getting the RBI numbers was b/c they guys in front of him werent doing what they need to do, like get on steal, move guys over, and those things, for the number 3 guy in the lineup to get those clutch hits.

I would also like to see Dunn's AVG. with RISP I bet that is about .220 and Casey's was probably about .330.

I am not knocking Dunn, but you can't honestly tell me you feel confident when Dunn comes to the plate and we need soem kind of big hit or rally.

Just answer this question Casey or Dunn it that situation. Dunn would strike out nine times out of ten and the only time he seems to do something is when we are losing or when there isnt anyone on base.

I love the Reds just about as much as anyone, and that is why I think this is a stupid move. They have to realize they arent just getting rid of a certain guy on the roster. They are getting rid of their heart and soul. He was the captain, the team leader, I have never once seen anyone on this team take any kind of leadership, besides maybe a little bit of Larue.

Hell I don't even see guys like Griffey, Pena, Kearns, Dunn, Lopez, or the pitchers, just get fired up. The only emotion they ever show is when they have a walk off homerun and they bounce on the plate for a minute.

I would be suprised if this team wins 70 games this year.
 
Upvote 0
I don't like seeing Casey get traded for anyone. I really liked the guy and it was fun to watch (or listen) to him play. What really sucks is trading him for a worthless, career losing record pitcher. We don't need another Eric Milton. Damn dumb asses. I thought the new owners were going to make some smart moves, I don't see this as being very smart. It may save money but unless it is spent in a better way the team still suffers. Mark it down, Casey will be productive for the Pirates and Dave Williams will go 8-8 with a 5.52 ERA if he doesn't get hurt and rehab in the minors all year. :huh: :mad1:
 
Upvote 0
coastalbuck said:
I don't like seeing Casey get traded for anyone. I really liked the guy and it was fun to watch (or listen) to him play. What really sucks is trading him for a worthless, career losing record pitcher. We don't need another Eric Milton. Damn dumb asses. I thought the new owners were going to make some smart moves, I don't see this as being very smart. It may save money but unless it is spent in a better way the team still suffers. Mark it down, Casey will be productive for the Pirates and Dave Williams will go 8-8 with a 5.52 ERA if he doesn't get hurt and rehab in the minors all year. :huh: :mad1:
Click to expand...

8-8 hell Harang won't even go 8-8.
 
Upvote 0
crazybuckfan40 said:
Well last year was a down year for Casey, but he still hit .312, tops on the Reds team. While Dunn hit a whopping .247.

The problem for Casey not getting the RBI numbers was b/c they guys in front of him werent doing what they need to do, like get on steal, move guys over, and those things, for the number 3 guy in the lineup to get those clutch hits.

I would also like to see Dunn's AVG. with RISP I bet that is about .220 and Casey's was probably about .330.

I am not knocking Dunn, but you can't honestly tell me you feel confident when Dunn comes to the plate and we need soem kind of big hit or rally.

Just answer this question Casey or Dunn it that situation. Dunn would strike out nine times out of ten and the only time he seems to do something is when we are losing or when there isnt anyone on base.

I love the Reds just about as much as anyone, and that is why I think this is a stupid move. They have to realize they arent just getting rid of a certain guy on the roster. They are getting rid of their heart and soul. He was the captain, the team leader, I have never once seen anyone on this team take any kind of leadership, besides maybe a little bit of Larue.

Hell I don't even see guys like Griffey, Pena, Kearns, Dunn, Lopez, or the pitchers, just get fired up. The only emotion they ever show is when they have a walk off homerun and they bounce on the plate for a minute.

I would be suprised if this team wins 70 games this year.
Click to expand...

I understand your frustration with Dunn because I often feel the same way. However, to evaluate a player based solely on batting average does not tell the entire story. In fact, it is often misleading. Here is a thread that went through this discussion once before:

http://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14551&highlight=Dunn

If you read this, you will see that I was arguing the same side as you are. Dunn still frustrates me with some of his at-bats, but I have become more convinced regarding his real value to the team.

Don't get me wrong. Casey is my favorite player and I will absolutely miss his leadership on the team, but the deal made sense in that it frees up money for pitching. A 10-11 record with a 4.41 ERA isn't earth shattering, but that's good enough to be our 2nd or 3rd best starter at this point. Almost anyone would be better than Ortiz, Hudson, and Milton were last year. Here are the stats for the other regular starters:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=ysptblthbody1 align=middle><TD class=yspdetailttl align=left height=18>Player</TD><TD> </TD><TD>G</TD><TD> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg7>GS</TD><TD> </TD><TD>W</TD><TD> </TD><TD>L</TD><TD> </TD><TD>SV</TD><TD> </TD><TD>CG</TD><TD> </TD><TD>SHO</TD><TD> </TD><TD>IP</TD><TD> </TD><TD>H</TD><TD> </TD><TD>R</TD><TD> </TD><TD>ER</TD><TD> </TD><TD>HR</TD><TD> </TD><TD>BB</TD><TD> </TD><TD>K</TD><TD> </TD><TD>ERA</TD><TD> </TD><TD>WHIP</TD><TD> </TD><TD>BAA</TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left> Eric Milton</TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>34 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>34 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>8 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>15 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>186.1 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>237 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>141 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>134 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>40 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>52 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>123 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>6.47 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1.55 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>.302 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left> Aaron Harang</TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>32 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>32 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>11 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>13 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>211.2 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>217 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>93 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>90 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>22 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>51 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>163 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>3.83 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1.27 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>.267 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left> Ramón Ortiz</TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>30 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>30 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>9 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>11 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>171.1 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>206 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>110 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>102 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>34 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>51 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>96 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>5.36 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1.50 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>.302 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow2 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left> Brandon Claussen</TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>29 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>29 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>10 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>11 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>166.2 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>178 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>89 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>78 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>24 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>57 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>121 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>4.21 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1.41 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>.273 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD></TR><TR class=ysprow1 align=right><TD class=yspscores align=left> Luke Hudson</TD><TD class=yspscores> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>19 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=ysptblclbg6 align=right>16 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>6 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>9 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>0 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>84.2 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>83 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>62 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>60 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>14 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>50 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>53 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>6.38 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>1.57 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right>.268 </TD><TD class=yspscores align=right> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Now, I am not saying Dave Williams is a front-line starter. But he's an improvement on what we have, he's left-handed, and he's cheaper than anything we could get on the free agent market. The fact that he gave up 20 HR in less than 140 innings is a concern, seeing that you can triple that number since he'll be pitching in GABP.
 
Upvote 0
Battaing average is the least reliable indicator of offensive prowress in baseball.

Go look at OBP and SLG. Combine them and you have OPS. THAT is how you tell the great hitters from the merely mediocre.

I could get into this in great detail but I won't unless someone really, really wants me to.

Bottom line on the Casey deal is we are free from his contract and 2 young studs with much higher ceilings will now get to play everday. The pitcher in return is irrelevent.

BTW here is a post I put on a Reds board last year regarding Casey, and BA WRISP

the dreaded "w/RISP" numbers at the break

<HR style="COLOR: #efefef" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->I taste so much stomach bile listening to Grande and the crappy left hander go on and on about Casey being our "best hitter" w/RISP that I just want to have a discussion with some input from some saber types to tell me if I am missing something fundamentally important.

Here is how I see it and all of the following stats are w/RISP so I don't have to keep typing that.

1st job of a batter who comes up with ducks on the pond is to not make an out right?

OBP w/RISP
Dunn: .447
LaRue: .375
Casey: .367
Randa: .364
Griffey: .354

Now to me the 1st job is actually drive someone in, then second is to not make an out but I'm sure someone will rip me for that one so I'll call driving in a run job #2. The fairest way to measure is how many per AB not just raw RBI's because some get a ton more opportunities than others due to lineup failures.

RBI per AB w/RISP
Griffey: .512
Dunn: .446
Aurilia: .436
LaRue: .435
Pena: .423

3rd thing I feel is important is to see how much damage a hitter actually does in that situation i.e. I want a wall banger up there, not a banjo hitter.

SLG w/RISP
Griffey: .595
Pena: .577
Dunn: .523
Aurilia: .418
LaRue: .391


Now the argument that Reds broadcasters, and appearantly FO types as well, adhere to is that you don't want high strikeout hitters killing rally's by K'ing in this situation and I can see some merit to this but an outs an out and we have already seen who does the best job of not making an out(Dunn). The type of out that is NOT the same as any other out is the type that gets 2 men out with one swing or the infamous Ground into A Casey.

GIDP w/RISP
Casey: 9
Randa: 4
no one else with more than 3


Its pretty clear to me that besides a .300+ BA w/RISP Casey is far from being our most productive hitter in that scenario. If any of my logic is off I would love to hear from the stat guys as to why, I am far from an expert on this stuff and learn a ton from discussions like this.
Click to expand...
 
Upvote 0
I'm sorry, but if you trade Sean Casey, you got to do better than Dave freaking Williams.

That being said, if they traded these guys for solid pitching, I have no problem with it. But not for a guy who isn't even a .500 pitcher and has a four and a half ERA.

Barry Zito is for trade, Matt Morris is a free agent, Dontrell Willis is probably being shopped by the Marlins too. They can do better. They need pitching talent, not more of the same. O'Brien is an idiot. The new owner will shorten his stay in short order, I'm sure, from what they are saying about him.
 
Upvote 0
I'm pissed. Some of you Casey haters have no clue about sports. He was a perinneal .300 hitter, a solid fielder, with a clubhouse presence second to none. Watch this team fall apart. I've been a Reds fan since I knew what baseball was. Not sure about my loyalties anymore. This is like trading your wife. First Lark, now this. Fuck those assholes. Fuck pro sports.

Edit: By the way, I agree with your numbers Jax. BA is very unreliable, but he brouoght more tot he table than that. Overpaid? Maybe for his physical skills.
 
Upvote 0
Mr. Incredible said:
I'm pissed. Some of you Casey haters have no clue about sports. He was a perinneal .300 hitter, a solid fielder, with a clubhouse presence second to none. Watch this team fall apart. I've been a Reds fan since I knew what baseball was. Not sure about my loyalties anymore. This is like trading your wife. First Lark, now this. Fuck those assholes. Fuck pro sports.

Edit: By the way, I agree with your numbers Jax. BA is very unreliable, but he brouoght more tot he table than that. Overpaid? Maybe for his physical skills.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong...I LIKE Sean Casey and he isn't over paid by MLB standards but he is overpaid by Reds standards.

A mid market team with a 60M payroll can't afford a luxury like a singles hitting, DP machine with no power at 1B for 8M a year. Thats 13% of the payroll tied up in a guy who has reached the ceiling of his career and is a lifetime sub .800 OPS type (off the top of my head).

Small market teams must always be on the look out for ways to get similar or equal production from younger, cheaper players and trade the expensive vets for payflex/prospects.

For those saying Williams isn't enough, I agree 100%. Williams and 7M or so in salary and giving young, cheap, high ceiling types like WMP and AK regular PT is more than enough.
 
Upvote 0
Jaxbuck said:
Don't get me wrong...I LIKE Sean Casey and he isn't over paid by MLB standards but he is overpaid by Reds standards.

A mid market team with a 60M payroll can't afford a luxury like a singles hitting, DP machine with no power at 1B for 8M a year. Thats 13% of the payroll tied up in a guy who has reached the ceiling of his career and is a lifetime sub .800 OPS type (off the top of my head).

Small market teams must always be on the look out for ways to get similar or equal production from younger, cheaper players and trade the expensive vets for payflex/prospects.

For those saying Williams isn't enough, I agree 100%. Williams and 7M or so in salary and giving young, cheap, high ceiling types like WMP and AK regular PT is more than enough.
Click to expand...

Hopefully we can keep Freel. That fourth/fifth outfielder came in handy many times in the past two years.
 
Upvote 0
Mr. Incredible said:
Hopefully we can keep Freel. That fourth/fifth outfielder came in handy many times in the past two years.
Click to expand...

Yes but not as a starter, he just can't hold up.

I want to see them get a super glove man for SS and move Fe Lo to 2B. As long as super glove has a decent OBP I think you can live with the outs given th rest of our lineup.

A Edwin Encarnacion, Super Glove, Felepe Lopez, Adam Dunn infield would be as athletic, rangy and offensively potent as we have had in quite some time.

Mix in the best catching tadem in baseball(offensively) from last year with an outfield of WMP, AK and JR and once again scoring runs will not be an issue no matter what that grumpy old bastard Marty says.

Now that casey is gone the position players on this team are very young(save for JR) and very talented. Now if we can A) keep them in Cincy and B) give them some pitching the Reds can be a legit team sometime in the near future.

New ownership gives me hope. This would have NEVER happened under Lidner.
 
Upvote 0
Jaxbuck said:
AK and JR and once again scoring runs will not be an issue no matter what that grumpy old bastard Marty says.
Click to expand...


Actually I was listening to Marty last night and believe or not, he was OK with the trade. He understood why the Reds needed to ditch his salary. He thought maybe they could have gotten a better pitcher but overall wasn't negative at all when I was listening to him.
 
Upvote 0
Thump said:
Actually I was listening to Marty last night and believe or not, he was OK with the trade. He understood why the Reds needed to ditch his salary. He thought maybe they could have gotten a better pitcher but overall wasn't negative at all when I was listening to him.
Click to expand...

Well shit. There goes that. I was looking foreward to it just eating him alive.

Oh well, maybe Grande or the retarded left hander.
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top