Question(s) for Christians

[Buckeye513]

Why are so many of you against entitlement/social programs and how do you justify it?

I generally try to avoid talking about politics with people I know, but yesterday I made a subtle comment about the healthcare bill and had to listen to one of my friends go on a 10-minute rant about healthcare reform, which lead to universal healthcare, which lead to unemployment benefits and welfare. She's a Baptist, goes to church 2-3 times a week, and is honestly one of the nicest people I've ever met. I didn't even know she was political until this happened, but apparently she hates her some entitlementz. This was especially surprising to me for some reason.

Everyone's heard things like this from self-identified Christians, either in person or in the media. It's always confused me, but I've never been able to find an explanation. I've had someone tell me that taxes go against god-given free will, but the anger always seems to be aimed at these particular programs in theory ("why should I have to pay for/take care of x, y, and z") rather than taxes themselves. None of my Christian friends have ever bitched to me about having to pay for road maintenance.

Seriously, does this not go against your message and Jesus' teachings in some way?

 

[DaytonBuck]

I'm not a practicing christian but from I remember some forms of Christianity like LDS are big on self reliance. I think some times the opposition is more politically based than religious based. There's a big difference between road maintenance and welfare. It's the unintended consequences that these programs cause that I think leads to a lot of devastation in minority communities. The great Dainel Patrick Moynihan pretty much nailed what all the great society programs did to the black community

 

[sepia5]

I'm not a practicing christian but from I remember some forms of Christianity like LDS are big on self reliance.

I guess that comes from the parable wherein Jesus feeds the masses. Oh wait . . . .

This question about why so many Christians believe what they do in today's political climate is really perplexing to me, too. I'll be interested to hear responses.

 

[BayBuck]

I imagine it has to do (at least partly) with a disapproval of the efficiency/efficacy of programs intended for the good of our fellow man being run by the government. A great many Christians, like many other conscientious people of other philosophical persuasions, are actively involved in caring and providing for the less fortunate among us, and they can legitimately be suspicious of the government's ability to do so, even if it is purportedly on a larger scale than individuals can manage on their own.

But then of course we are all complex and imperfect beings, and the intersection of religion and politics within us is complex and imperfect as well. It's not hard to see how a strictly religious person can be conflicted when public money for healthcare programs may also provide for, say, abortions or other controversial programs. And as for a liberal government that seeks to offer these "entitlements/social programs", is it really motivated by love and care for the needy, or is it (as has so often been the case over the years) motivated by political power and control of the masses? A social program is not always just a social program...

 

[jadudley03]

"Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don?t need it and hell where they already have it." -Ronald Reagan

I would start with the most simple and basic reason. In order for a government to provide a service, they first have to steal it from someone else. There is no such thing as providing something for nothing, and since the government doesn't create anything, they have to acquire what they want by stealing it from others, period.

The reason welfare/social programs don't work is because they remove the personal component. If someone is hard up and the local community rallies to help them, they will surely be seeing the local people regularly and thus will either work hard to pull their weight as a show of their appreciation for the help, or face people in shame. Our impersonal system has removed the shame component which is critical.

From a Christian perspective on health, we should be good stewards of what we have, including our own health. Healthcare costs are only an issue in this country because health is an issue first. If the average Joe was taking better care of himself there would be plenty of money in the insurance pots to take care of those who have legitimate health issues. I don't know about you but I would much prefer my money go to help someone that was born with a disability than to a guy that need quadruple bypass because he lived on Big Macs.

Christians are called to give and be generous, but stealing is wrong no matter who you are.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

 

[sepia5]

I would start with the most simple and basic reason. In order for a government to provide a service, they first have to steal it from someone else. There is no such thing as providing something for nothing, and since the government doesn't create anything, they have to acquire what they want by stealing it from others, period.

So your position is that taxation equates to the government "stealing?"

The reason welfare/social programs don't work is because they remove the personal component. If someone is hard up and the local community rallies to help them, they will surely be seeing the local people regularly and thus will either work hard to pull their weight as a show of their appreciation for the help, or face people in shame. Our impersonal system has removed the shame component which is critical.

Your assertion is simply belied by history. We wouldn't have programs like Food Stamps and Social Security today if private charitable institutions had, in the past, been able to deal with the problems those programs alleviate. There's clearly a place for such private efforts, and they do immense good, but by themselves they cannot meet the challenges of a large, diverse national population.

From a Christian perspective on health, we should be good stewards of what we have, including our own health. Healthcare costs are only an issue in this country because health is an issue first. If the average Joe was taking better care of himself there would be plenty of money in the insurance pots to take care of those who have legitimate health issues. I don't know about you but I would much prefer my money go to help someone that was born with a disability than to a guy that need quadruple bypass because he lived on Big Macs.

I agree that personal responsibility needs to play a central part in controlling health care costs, but to frame the issue as you have is just incredibly overly simplistic. You completely ignore the fact that many illnesses result from genetic problems; that as medical technology develops, new and expensive procedures become available; that as life expectancy increases as a result, so too does the cost of medical care; that we currently have a compensation structure for medical professionals that incourages waste; etc.; etc. Lack of personal responsibility is but one factor in an incredibly complex web of problems.

 

[Florida Buckeye]

The overwhelming majority of Americans still identify themselves as Christian and over 90% say they believe in God. Perhaps the vocalization of a few has lead to the stereotyping/discrimination of the many, but that's a different discussion.

Christians are responsible in a large way for the modern hospital. Most early hospitals were almost entirely run by Christian organizations. Many still are run by them or have their roots in them. Same thing holds true for charities. This is directly rooted in the teachings of Jesus, which can be summed up with "love thy neighbor as thy self".

With these Christian based systems to provide for the needs of those who cannot provide for them on their own, there is an effort for the local community to pull together. There is also a reliance on God to provide. Government run programs tend to remove God from any equation and as a Christian, I do have a problem with that. I do not have a problem with helping those less fortunate through the Church as demonstrated in the book of Acts and also as instructed to in the book of James. If you want to know if a Christian measures up to their beliefs, read these two books. Galatians also specifically spells out how you can tell if someone truly believes or are just giving lip service and a bad name to the Church. I once read that most pastors believe the majority of their congregations are not truly believers saved by grace.

As far as taxes go, Jesus said "give to Cesear what is Cesear's". Interestingly, God pretty much says in the Bible He can provide for all needs if everyone gave 10%. Last time I checked, the government needs far more and still can't do it all without borrowing. There are corrupt human beings in the Church who missuse some of these funds to be sure, but I'm pretty sure it is on a much smaller scale than those in Congress and the White House using our tax dollars.

I do get frustrated by the yelling and screaming some (including Christians) do. I'm more frustrated that Americans now pretty much view other Americans with opposing / different views as idiots and try to demonize them. It seems like Clinton was evil, then Bush and now Obama. Each one one of them was / are going to cause democracy to cease. Both sides do it and talk in terms of extremes.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Just ten percent, eh? Sounds like God's quite the financial wiz.

 

[sepia5]

Government run programs tend to remove God from any equation and as a Christian, I do have a problem with that.

So you simply reject the concept of separation of church and state as memorialized in the United States Constitution's religous clauses?

As far as taxes go, Jesus said "give to Cesear what is Cesear's". Interestingly, God pretty much says in the Bible He can provide for all needs if everyone gave 10%.

I read this as a direct, Biblical endorsement of the State's power to tax and spend. How do you read it?

I do get frustrated by the yelling and screaming some (including Christians) do. I'm more frustrated that Americans now pretty much view other Americans with opposing / different views as idiots and try to demonize them. It seems like Clinton was evil, then Bush and now Obama. Each one one of them was / are going to cause democracy to cease. Both sides do it and talk in terms of extremes.

Well said.

 

[martinss01]

We wouldn't have programs like Food Stamps and Social Security today if private charitable institutions had, in the past, been able to deal with the problems those programs alleviate.

are you arguing that food stamps and social security are successful programs?

 

[Tonyank]

So there is a man floating in the sky ?

 

[sepia5]

are you arguing that food stamps and social security are successful programs?

Sure, though like any massive program--public or private--they're not without their problems, including, for instance, the issues faced with social security given the baby boomers' impending retirement. I mean, starvation and malnutrition aren't problems to anywhere near the extent they were prior to Food Stamps being instituted, for instance. Now, you can argue that other factors play into the allevaiton of those problems, and I won't argue with you. But, to me, it defies history and logic to argue that Food Stamps hasn't played a major role in erradicating starvation in the United States, and that private charity is the lone solution.

Now let me be clear. I would say most government programs could be improved upon. There are always ways to make them more efficient. But at the opposite end of the spectrum are arguments that the government simply can't do anything well, and that any government program is a massive waste. I reject these absolutes and believe that government has an important role to play in society, just as does private industry.

 

[fourteenandoh]

I guess that comes from the parable wherein Jesus feeds the masses. Oh wait . . . .

This question about why so many Christians believe what they do in today's political climate is really perplexing to me, too. I'll be interested to hear responses.

Did the government tell Jesus he had to feed the masses? There is a huge difference between being charitable on your own (which last I checked the US is by far the most charitable country in the world), and having someone take your money and hand it out to whomever they think needs it.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Did the government tell Jesus he had to feed the masses? There is a huge difference between being charitable on your own (which last I checked the US is by far the most charitable country in the world), and having someone take your money and hand it out to whomever they think needs it.

Is there?

The question as I understand it is - why are so many Christians seemingly against government run social programs.

If I am to divine meaning from your response, I have to assume you believe a good Christian will help those down on their luck - ie with healthcare, or food, or whatever - via other means. So.. I have to conclude you're not against the programs themselves, in so much as the goal being sought to accomplish.

Paired with the "having someone take your money and hand it out to whomever they think needs it" remark, I have to assume you have some kind of problem with the programs the Gov. has chosen to run in effort to assist people (ie healthcare, or food, or whatever).

So...

which is it?

 

[MaliBuckeye]

Why are so many of you against entitlement/social programs and how do you justify it?

I generally try to avoid talking about politics with people I know, but yesterday I made a subtle comment about the healthcare bill and had to listen to one of my friends go on a 10-minute rant about healthcare reform, which lead to universal healthcare, which lead to unemployment benefits and welfare. She's a Baptist, goes to church 2-3 times a week, and is honestly one of the nicest people I've ever met. I didn't even know she was political until this happened, but apparently she hates her some entitlementz. This was especially surprising to me for some reason.

Everyone's heard things like this from self-identified Christians, either in person or in the media. It's always confused me, but I've never been able to find an explanation. I've had someone tell me that taxes go against god-given free will, but the anger always seems to be aimed at these particular programs in theory ("why should I have to pay for/take care of x, y, and z") rather than taxes themselves. None of my Christian friends have ever bitched to me about having to pay for road maintenance.

Seriously, does this not go against your message and Jesus' teachings in some way?

My $.02

A lot of this comes from the idea that many Christians hold regarding what Jesus meant by "the Kingdom of God".

Those that saw it as a "rule and reign of God" thing ushered in by Christ's birth/life/death/resurrection also seem to connect serving and caring for others in the here and now.

Christians who see the KoG as an eventual destination or a yet to be realized thing often focus their energies into ensuring that people get "saved" and ready for the eventual rule of God. Life here and now is not as important.

Again, these are overviews of two extreme positions- there's a lot of nuance and good, faithful people on both sides and in the middle. And, both positions have been held by people who impacted society in positive ways.

Add to this mix persons who see engagement with the political to be a mandate to ensure "one nation under God", or folks who are separatists ("in the world but not of the world"), and it gets even more muddy in regards to Christian belief about involvement in or rejection of all things political/government.

The best resources I've had for learning more about this are: Evangelical does not equal Republican or Democrat, and Divided by Faith, as well as the writings of Jim Wallis (yup, that guy) and Ron Sider.

Anyway... my two cents.