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- Thread starter mercer_buckeye
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409fold
All-American
Sure --- there are losers out there who have self-esteem problems, and lock onto something else (e.g., the success of a football team) to make themselves feel better.
Are you arguing there are more losers with self-esteem problems in Pennsylvania vs. elsewhere?
Also --- you said earlier "it has nothing to do with geography." Now geography is coming in? What was "it" referring to in your first statement?
I know you refuse to believe this: but this absolutely could have been an Ohio State (or Michigan or fill in the blank) problem, and if it was, there absolutely would be loudmouth Ohio State fans refusing to accept reality.
It's the "human condition", not a "Penn State fan condition."
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There was one on Amazon Prime--is that the same one? Yeah, places like that horrify me. How the hell women ever talk themselves into believing that being one of 400 wives, along with their sisters and minor daughters, is a good idea--can't process it.
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409fold
All-American
FWIW, with Moeller, Tresell and Woody there were:
(1) direct audio, we are 100% certain that was Moeller on audio tape,
(2) direct e-mails, we are 100% certain e-mails came to/from [email protected] (or whatever his e-mail is) and,
(3) direct video, we are 100% certain that was Woody on the video.
I've been very clear in my personal opinion that Joe Paterno was a bad person in his last 10 years at Penn State. But, it is true that we have none of (1), (2), or (3) available as regards Paterno.
Thus, the "true believers" have more wiggle room. It is the human condition - "true believers" do not give up willingly. Southern racists, Nixon supporters, folk who supported the Iraq War because Sadaam collaborated on 9/11, Catholic Church defenders, et cetera, et cetera ......
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People are born to worship and we are gullible. That weakness is countered by experience of heroes letting us down. Plenty of us put Jim on a pedestal, and defended him with severe bias though I'd argue there were some distinct differences.
In this case, Joe made himself the leader of the land and not only above reproach but in firm control of any threats to his grand experiment. His stranglehold on the power, fame and value in that town fueled a severely insular culture.
It also existed outside of a conference where other schools and people would have differing ideas and visions for how things should be done, requiring compromise and acceptance of things besides what Joe wants. Those programs would also rise and fall in terms of success at the expense of psu. These extremely normal conference experiences were so unusual for psu that from the moment they joined, they had a truly extreme martyr complex at all times. That was the case about the most trivial of things and the conspiracies were staggering.
So many psu fans despised or resented the league and spoke about how they were victims of jealousy, bias and the league protecting the big 2 but not them (an argument you never hear from northwestern or Purdue fans because they grew up in the league and have perspective). There is a big 1 down in Texas if psu fans would like to understand what that kind of warped conference actually looks like instead of what their echo chamber dreamed up.
The rhetoric, delusion and bile was staggering throughout the past few decades. And then the most heinous scandal in athletics history surfaced and their entire identity, Joe Paterno, was smack dab in the middle of it. If they were so unreasonable about commissioner support or officiating, how over the top would they be when faced with something this bad? The results were predictable.
So you can understand why other big ten fans react in such a way to the many troll tastic psu fans, especially with how badly they wanted out of this hell hole before they discovered what hell was.
And like the recent article said, nearly all of this oppression is their fault. If they behaved like reasonable conference members, the response would be so much different. But alas they cling desperately and violently to the martyr label even if it is disgusting at this point.
And no this doesn't apply to all PSU fans. Sadly it applies to most of what is left on the two major psu forums.
In this case, Joe made himself the leader of the land and not only above reproach but in firm control of any threats to his grand experiment. His stranglehold on the power, fame and value in that town fueled a severely insular culture.
It also existed outside of a conference where other schools and people would have differing ideas and visions for how things should be done, requiring compromise and acceptance of things besides what Joe wants. Those programs would also rise and fall in terms of success at the expense of psu. These extremely normal conference experiences were so unusual for psu that from the moment they joined, they had a truly extreme martyr complex at all times. That was the case about the most trivial of things and the conspiracies were staggering.
So many psu fans despised or resented the league and spoke about how they were victims of jealousy, bias and the league protecting the big 2 but not them (an argument you never hear from northwestern or Purdue fans because they grew up in the league and have perspective). There is a big 1 down in Texas if psu fans would like to understand what that kind of warped conference actually looks like instead of what their echo chamber dreamed up.
The rhetoric, delusion and bile was staggering throughout the past few decades. And then the most heinous scandal in athletics history surfaced and their entire identity, Joe Paterno, was smack dab in the middle of it. If they were so unreasonable about commissioner support or officiating, how over the top would they be when faced with something this bad? The results were predictable.
So you can understand why other big ten fans react in such a way to the many troll tastic psu fans, especially with how badly they wanted out of this hell hole before they discovered what hell was.
And like the recent article said, nearly all of this oppression is their fault. If they behaved like reasonable conference members, the response would be so much different. But alas they cling desperately and violently to the martyr label even if it is disgusting at this point.
And no this doesn't apply to all PSU fans. Sadly it applies to most of what is left on the two major psu forums.
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So basically you think other people would do it too in the same situation so Penn State fans aren't bad?
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What jwins said. Fans were gutted when we watched Woody sliding down the slope to the Clemson game and in its aftermath. But fans did not call for his reinstatement. Our newspapers and state government did not leap to his defense. After the non-stop ESPiN attempt to gut Tressel, I think everyone's reaction to the Tressel tattoo email debacle was one of immediate disbelief. In the scheme of things, it was a minor infraction committed by a good man in a complex situation (ex-OSU player leaks information from a case being investigated, Tressel does not delete email to hide the matter, but calls the team together to go over NCAA rules). Fans did not ask for those wins to be reinstated. They moved on very quickly after his apology.
Now, contrast that with PSU fans reaction to Paterno. Let us not forget that Paterno himself said he should have done more. Now, we hear that there are records of his knowing about Sandusky decades earlier. Still, all we hear is the bleating from a fairly large segment of PSU fans about facts and evidence. There is something very wrong with people who invest so much of their social identity in a set of beliefs about a man that they hold as a deity. A people who hold those beliefs so closely that they cannot see the stark light of reality.
It's not all PSU fans, just like it's not all tOSU fans, who are crazy. But, in my experience, it is the majority, and they have done far more harm to the PSU brand than Paterno or Sandusky did.
Now, contrast that with PSU fans reaction to Paterno. Let us not forget that Paterno himself said he should have done more. Now, we hear that there are records of his knowing about Sandusky decades earlier. Still, all we hear is the bleating from a fairly large segment of PSU fans about facts and evidence. There is something very wrong with people who invest so much of their social identity in a set of beliefs about a man that they hold as a deity. A people who hold those beliefs so closely that they cannot see the stark light of reality.
It's not all PSU fans, just like it's not all tOSU fans, who are crazy. But, in my experience, it is the majority, and they have done far more harm to the PSU brand than Paterno or Sandusky did.
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409fold
All-American
That's not what I'm arguing (I think you actually know that).
Penn State fans who remain "Paterno Loyalists" are a stain on the Penn State fanbase. I've said that for awhile, both here and elsewhere. My voicing of that opinion is part of the reason "michnittlion" is not very popular on BWI.
What I'm arguing is: "if Paterno had been hired by (school X) and the same thing happened (enabled a criminal), there would be many fans of (school X) that would act as present-day JoeBots are acting."
People are people - in the aggregate, we act all the same.
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Delaware Buck
Heisman
You're simply not getting "it". I've explained a dozen times now. You are moving the goal posts around. Creating strawmen and red herrings, deflections all in an effort to convince everyone that this cult perception is limited to a few nut-jobs - but it's not. I'll give you one last bit of advise and I tried to take the snarkiness out. Call this Delaware Buck's Guide to Independent Thinking for Penn State Fans, Alum and Supporters
Some forum recommendations
- Survey the forum you want to post to - get a feel for the general mood and views of the participants. If it's obvious that people feel a certain way cater your views accordingly and error on the side of caution. This goes for any place not named BWI, Audibles, BSD
- Try to emulate some of the decent opposing fans posting here and on other sites (if this was someplace like the Ozone you would be lucky to last a day with the current attitude)
- If someone brings up the Penn State sex abuse scandal don't attempt to get into discussion about insurance claims, legal cases, minutia, motives, media coverage, bias etc... The world moved on after the conviction of JS and Freeh gave his report and the school accepted the sanctions and NOTHING will ever change that singular fact. (read that last sentence again so it sinks in and then just keep repeating it over and over). This is a case where an extreme amount of hubris will serve you well. So proving how much you've read, researched or discounted about the case is only going to end poorly. The only place that is going to play well is BWI, Audibles, BSD... It's not gonna make you look intelligent, qualified or otherwise trustworthy in other places. It's simply going to make you look defensive, churlish, callous and cultish.
- You should be saying things like (it's pretty much a broad overview on what the rest of society feels):
- "I am embarrassed with what happened at my alma mater. It a tragic and unfortunate thing that we cannot seem to come to grips with 5 years later...So many kids were hurt because my university allowed a pedophile access to our campuses with impunity while having full knowledge of his intentions..."
- "I make no excuses for any of the indicted parties and hopefully justice is served either here or elsewhere... I'm not going to spend a single second defending any of them or playing devils advocate because I understand what the rest of the world understands... These are bad men that cared more about reputation than kids"
- "My university should be moving on and I am saddened that it's been overrun with zealots who's only mission is to honor a flawed and despicable 'human being'. The damage they are doing just further alienates us from the rest of society..."
- "I am ashamed of the current state of the alumni elections process. It seems that the majority of the Penn State nation wants to hang to something that is gone and never existed in the first place. It's unfortunate that many of my fellow Penn Staters cannot think for themselves or find a way to rise above this..."
- "I have no interest in dredging up events from 2011 nor am I interested in making excuses for what happened... nor do I have any interest in calling into question the media reporting, victim settlements or elements of a report that was accepted by my university...The matter is closed and I accept what was found..."
- "I am working with other sane Penn State people to reverse what is currently happening with our Penn State leadership but it's very much an uphill battle and it may take years to reverse the damage that the current factions are doing..."
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Disagree
Strongly
Penn State is unique in that they had one coach they built up as bigger than life, bigger than the school.
All the other big, rabid fanbases have a loyalty to the school/team. Bama, OSU, USC etc all have had multiple eras of success, it wasn't all tied to one man.
Would there be some JoeBots amongst those groups? Sure, but no where near the level Penn State has.
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409fold
All-American
Overall, that was a good and fair post. Not that I meant to clip the whole thing --- but the last sentence.
"The two major Penn State forums."
Is that a fair way to judge the Penn State community? A couple message boards, one run by a guy who is a proven Paterno-insider and likely paid by the Paterno family to leverage BWI as a JoeBot "safe haven" (that would be Tom McAndrew himself).
I've said this before. When I grew up in Michigan, I would hear stuff like: "all Ohio State fans are neanderthals who have no lives besides Ohio State football. Never visit Columbus, because you will die if you wear maize and blue."
Then I actually visited Columbus. And realized that is not how the world is. That's how the world has been EVERY time I've had my horizons broadened.
Take it FWIW.
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