Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[Gatorubet]

It's probably because the circles he coached in got a bad reputation for no reason. :p

Sun spots? :p

 

[osugrad21]

AJC

2. Speaking of Clowney, his addition gives South Carolina 32 signees in the 2011 class. So much for the crack down on oversigning, huh? Four of the Gamecocks? signees apparently are already enrolled, which gets them to the all-important 28-max number enacted by the SEC last year and the rest of the NCAA this year. But that means at least three of the remaining signees either are expected not to qualify academically, will be convinced to grayshirt or will have to be cut loose.
The Gamecocks already have drawn criticism from the website Oversigning.com because they withdrew the scholarship offers of two other recruits who had been committed to USC before national signing day. One of those is Atlanta?s own Lorenzo Mauldin, who committed to South Carolina last July. Neither Mauldin nor Maynard Jackson High coach Eric Williams could be reached for comment, but Mauldin has been quoted saying he is not upset and will wait to sign with the Gamecocks at a later date. We?ll see.

Reported as fact...not even close

 

[holybuckeye33]

AJC



Reported as fact...not even close

Which part?

 

[BB73]

A story on a Gamecock verbal who has yet to qualify, and currently isn't sure where he'll be in the fall.

In fairness to Spurrier, since he can't comment on an unsigned recruit, it's possible the kid was told that his being able to sign an LOI was contingent on qualifying academically.

Atlanta.Journal.C

"Shoved away" due to oversigning, Lorenzo Mauldin still hopes to end up at South Carolina
12:33 pm February 24, 2011, by Chip Towers

When it comes to talking about his life, Lorenzo Mauldin is not a big stickler for details. He tends to gloss over big chunks of his past, summarizing large expanses of it like asphalt over a highway full of potholes. The way he tells it, there are miles of smooth road both ahead and behind.

It?s easier that way, for Mauldin is a young man who is not terribly concerned about where he?s been, only where he?s going. That he?s not entirely certain of his destination is immaterial.

Mauldin is pretty sure his road will eventually lead to the University of South Carolina. Anywhere he ends up between now and then is, well, better than where he?s been.

?I?m pretty much set on South Carolina because of the fact that they will, if I don?t make the score that they need, they will put me into prep school for a semester and I will be there until early January,? said Mauldin, a 6-foot-4, 240-pound defensive end at Atlanta?s Maynard Jackson High School. ?So I mean that?s pretty good. I?m used to making good decisions in life and to me that sounds like a pretty good decision.?

Mauldin is used to making hard decisions. He has been a ward of the state most of his life. His mother has been incarcerated since he became a teen-ager and his father, who lives in California, is not involved in his life.

Cont'd ...

Apparently the possibility of grayshirting was mentioned to Mauldin by the coaches.

ESPN

Examining the other side of oversigning

Yes, the Gamecocks offered Mauldin a scholarship last July. And, yes, Mauldin accepted. But he was also told that there was a chance he might have to wait until January 2012 before enrolling on scholarship, which is more commonly referred to as grayshirting.

South Carolina coaches told him that possibility would only strengthen if he had not met NCAA entrance requirements prior to signing day.

Two weeks prior to signing day, South Carolina coaches reminded Mauldin that there might not be a scholarship available in this signing class.

So, at least, it sounds like South Carolina was upfront with Mauldin that he might have to attend prep school and/or wait until January to go on scholarship.


Cont'd ...

 

[Gatorubet]

I just never got excited about the Ole Ball Coach signing that many like y'all go on about. I think Steve is a pretty straight shooter. And he was just a few years ahead of me at my fraternity, so I have to defend Brother Spurrier.

In fairness to Spurrier, since he can't comment on an unsigned recruit, it's possible the kid was told that his being able to sign an LOI was contingent on qualifying academically.

Apparently the possibility of grayshirting was mentioned to Mauldin by the coaches.

Yes, the Gamecocks offered Mauldin a scholarship last July. And, yes, Mauldin accepted. But he was also told that there was a chance he might have to wait until January 2012 before enrolling on scholarship, which is more commonly referred to as grayshirting.

South Carolina coaches told him that possibility would only strengthen if he had not met NCAA entrance requirements prior to signing day.

Two weeks prior to signing day, South Carolina coaches reminded Mauldin that there might not be a scholarship available in this signing class.

As Bill points out, the kid was apprised of his status all along. My beef is lying to kids about their status - only to be kicked to the curb when a higher ranked kid signs. This is a good example of the way many SEC coaches play this: a kid who more than likely won't make the grades is included in your class despite the probability that he will not qualify. Like Coach Tubbs said, it gives them a chance to encourage the kid, and to keep in contact with him, it gives him a goal to motivate him keeping up his grades, rather than telling him he has no shot, and it allows the staff to help him find a JC or prep school that will admit him - and possibly allow him to play ball in the SEC at a later date, which was always the kid's dream.

And you do not have to agree with me about the practice, just to know that what I keep saying is true: that a staff accepting a kid's verbal is not always the same thing as the staff thinking he will be included in the LOIs who enroll and just not caring how many they sign when they do the math.

 

[jwinslow]

WSJ.SEC Coaches Defend 'Oversigning'

As Critics Blast the Practice, Spurrier, Nutt and Petrino Say It's Necessary—and Helpful

South Carolina's Steve Spurrier, whose 2011 recruiting class is considered one of the nation's finest, ended up with three more players than NCAA rules will allow him to add to his final roster in the fall. In a rare move, Spurrier was forced to tell two recruits who'd committed to play for South Carolina that there wouldn't be room for them in this fall's class.

Spurrier said oversigning is "helpful" because so many of the players in the state come from underprivileged backgrounds and may not qualify academically. He said the Big Ten, which has curbed oversigning for decades, is making a mistake by doing so. "I think that really hurts them a lot," Spurrier said. "They end up giving scholarships to a lot of walk-ons."

Well that ends that debate :p

Arkansas coach Bobby Petrino, who signed 31 recruits in 2009 and is a few players over the 85-player NCAA limit at the moment, said oversigning is fine if coaches are forthright about it. "I don't see it as a bad thing unless you're being dishonest or waiting until the last minute, which eliminates their visit opportunities with other schools," he said.

I agree it is a much better version of oversigning, but there is still plenty of 'bad' involved, even if it is an orchestrated accident like 3 extra kids qualifying.

Houston Nutt, Mississippi's coach, signed 31 players in 2008, 37 in 2009, 25 last year and 28 last month. He said oversigning is sometimes "necessary," mainly to plug holes. This year, he said, two cornerbacks—Jermaine Whitehead and Floyd Raven—defected at the last minute. "Now I'm sitting here without two corners. You just can't have this perfect world of, 'We're gonna sign 22 this year.'"

And that pretty much sums up the wildly different mindsets between the two sides. And no, not all oversigners are on Nutt's wavelength, but this nails the flawed mindset we complain about.

But in some cases, the team doesn't lose enough players through attrition to account for all the extras it signed, so the coach needs to get rid of some people. Rather than cut them outright—which would cost them their scholarships and create ill will among future recruits—teams force some to "grayshirt," or delay their enrollment for a semester. Others are asked to take a "medical scholarship" which allows them to keep their scholarship so long as they agree they are too injured to continue playing for the team. Some are strongly encouraged to transfer.

Defensive tackle Uriah Grant of Miramar, Fla., committed to play for Nutt in Mississippi last month. Grant said the extra bodies, and the extra competition, "doesn't bother me—I actually embrace it. I know I'm gonna be a starter."

Offensive tackle Jonah Austin of New Orleans, who signed at LSU, said he wasn't aware that LSU is about 11 players over budget—and that it's not something he's thought much about. Cornerback Senquez Golson of Pascagoula, Miss., who chose Mississippi over Florida State, said that at the risk of sounding "cocky" he's not worried about being "run off" by coaches. "I don't think I'll be one of those players," he said.

I knew they were signing quite a few players," says Calloway, but "I'm not afraid of the competition."

And this is why I don't accept Gator's notions that:

a) Cutting or dishonesty would come back to haunt them, considering the cockiness of athletes, particularly in the era of recruiting stardom
b) These kids must know and fully appreciate what they're getting themselves into when signing with LSU, Bama, Ole Miss and others.

On a side note, their language sure sounds like players are being cut. Given the variety of viewpoints provided here, I find it interesting that no players have denied the notion of being 'run off.'

Petrino, the Arkansas coach, said he tries to follow a formula. He signs 19 players he knows are "academically gonna make it without being a load on our academic support staff," six guys who may or may not qualify, and three to four players who have "absolutely no chance" of qualifying. (He signs the last group so that "they feel a commitment to us," and stashes them in junior college for a few years.) Petrino said he makes sure borderline cases are aware of what they need to do in order to qualify, as well as their odds of making the fall roster. "They understand that hey, we're gonna oversign, so if it's late in the summer and they haven't qualified yet, you might have to grayshirt," he said.

I appreciate a more upfront approach, but it still doesn't remove gambling with kids' futures, particularly when otherwise eligible players (either on roster or incoming) have to sacrifice because you guessed wrong about how many kids would fail.

A system that relies on a level of failure to succeed, and removes scholarships when those kids overachieve (vs your expectations) is a bad system.

Sometimes, however, the math simply goes awry. This year, Spurrier said that so many recruits chose South Carolina that they wound up with two more players than they could take under conference rules. The team told Jordan Montgomery, a linebacker from Groveland, Fla. and Lorenzo Mauldin, a defensive end from Atlanta, that there wasn't room for them in this year's class.

Montgomery's high school coach, Walter Banks, said, "I told them this was foul. I didn't have a clue until 18 hours before signing day, and if they say anything else, they're lying."

Will Spurrier's methods still be defended?

 

[osugrad21]

Will Spurrier's methods still be defended?

I'll hold off to see who qualifies. If lies were told, then that is that.

 

[jwinslow]

If lies were told, then that is that.

Which obviously comes with a grain of salt given the source, but it certainly stirs things up.

 

[ScriptOhio]

NCAA taking a closer look at oversigning

The hot button issue of oversigning is no longer just being examined by the media, the NCAA is taking a closer look into the issue as well.

The Division I Football Issues Committee has agreed to monitor a recent rule limiting schools to signing 28 recruits to a National Letter of Intent (NLI). Coaches have only 25 scholarships per year to give out but may sign up to 28 in case several recruits do not qualify academically.

The hot button issue of oversigning becomes especially newsworthy when schools have to tell recruits that they are no longer welcome because there is not a scholarship available. South Carolina, for example, signed 31 players to a letter of intent in 2011. Coaches usually try to keep players committed to the school but will re-route them to a prep school for a year or grayshirt them by having them enroll in the spring.

According to the NCAA release, the administrator of the NLI, Susan Peal, says the NLI's governing body does not support the grayshirting policy some schools use. If a player is persuaded by a coach to grayshirt and does not wish to so, their letter of intent can be considered void and they may sign when another school.

The new rule on oversigning, 15.5.1.10.1, and the rise in ways around it are forcing the NCAA to take a serious look at the practices schools use when signing football players.

?This rule has only been in effect for one year, and we want to take some time to see if that?s the perfect number," NCAA Division I Football Committee Chair Nick Carparelli said. ?Certainly, the committee will continue to monitor it, and we can re-evaluate to see if there is a more appropriate number if necessary.?
The NCAA is not the only group of people taking action to combat oversigning as several high school coaches are becoming proactive in trying to stop the practice by outright banning colleges from recruiting their kids if they oversign. South Lake High School (Groveland, Fla.) head coach Walter Banks banned South Carolina after one of his players, Jordan Montgomery, was told he could not enroll because of the numbers crunch.

?I cannot look a kid and their parent in the face and say you can trust what a University of South Carolina coach says,? Banks told The State newspaper.

Entire article: http://eye-on-recruiting.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26895818/27754192

 

[buxfan4life]

The hot button issue of oversigning is no longer just being examined by the media, the NCAA is taking a closer look into the issue as well.

The Division I Football Issues Committee has agreed to monitor a recent rule limiting schools to signing 28 recruits to a National Letter of Intent (NLI). Coaches have only 25 scholarships per year to give out but may sign up to 28 in case several recruits do not qualify academically.

The hot button issue of oversigning becomes especially newsworthy when schools have to tell recruits that they are no longer welcome because there is not a scholarship available. South Carolina, for example, signed 31 players to a letter of intent in 2011. Coaches usually try to keep players committed to the school but will re-route them to a prep school for a year or grayshirt them by having them enroll in the spring.

According to the NCAA release, the administrator of the NLI, Susan Peal, says the NLI's governing body does not support the grayshirting policy some schools use. If a player is persuaded by a coach to grayshirt and does not wish to so, their letter of intent can be considered void and they may sign when another school.

The new rule on oversigning, 15.5.1.10.1, and the rise in ways around it are forcing the NCAA to take a serious look at the practices schools use when signing football players.

?This rule has only been in effect for one year, and we want to take some time to see if that?s the perfect number," NCAA Division I Football Committee Chair Nick Carparelli said. ?Certainly, the committee will continue to monitor it, and we can re-evaluate to see if there is a more appropriate number if necessary.?
The NCAA is not the only group of people taking action to combat oversigning as several high school coaches are becoming proactive in trying to stop the practice by outright banning colleges from recruiting their kids if they oversign. South Lake High School (Groveland, Fla.) head coach Walter Banks banned South Carolina after one of his players, Jordan Montgomery, was told he could not enroll because of the numbers crunch.

?I cannot look a kid and their parent in the face and say you can trust what a University of South Carolina coach says,? Banks told The State newspaper.

Entire article: http://eye-on-recruiting.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26895818/27754192

Gator to Spurrier's defense in 3......2.......1.........

 

[osugrad21]

Phillip Dukes has now qualified for South Carolina. 1 more guaranteed schollie.

 

[Gatorubet]

Gator to Spurrier's defense in 3......2.......1.........

Not really. What I've said all along is that I don't really care how many kids they offer so long as the "last-in" kids they offer know that they may not get in, and that it is dependent on the variable of who else commits.

You can't guarantee who will sign and who will bolt and who will qualify, but you can get it down to one or two spots. If you tell a kid he may make it, but if not, he might have to gray shirt of pay his way for a year, that is fine. If you tell them the day before - when they can't sign with someone else - that is a different story.

There was one kid who was [censored]ed, but it appears he was told what his chances were. If it was disclosed, I could give a [Mark May]. The kid's choice. If the conditional nature of a spot was not disclosed, then it is all on the coaching staff - and ultimately on the Head Coach. It appears that a couple of kids were told the day before of the change. That is completely unacceptable and there should be some sanctions for doing that.

I think it could be cured by forcing the program to give the kid tuition, even thought it is not a formal athletic scholly - but count him against the limit for the 85 total. Moreover, you penalize the program one scholly the next year for each kid that was offered within - say - three months (or 60. I do not know enough about the % of offers accepted the last 60 or 90 days) of signing day, but not signed because of numbers problems on signing day. You may have had a couple kids who had almost no hope of being admitted hit the books/retake ACT, etc, and mess up what you thought was a really good faith effort to make the numbers work out right. But even in cases where the staff had no intent to deceive, if the numbers do not work, you cannot leave the kids out to dry. You owe them the paid tuition and housing inherent in the offer when you offered.

If the program messed it up, then the program should pay for the kid to enroll, even if he does not have a spot. When one opens up, he can get one. But if you do this, then what use are the limits - why not oversign every time? Well, if you force a couple marginal kids to count in your 85 total, then you cannot use them to get better. And if you lose a number of schollies the next year that equals the amount you oversign (IOW, each oversigned kid would count twice), then it is self defeating to oversign. Rules work best when naked self interest comes into play. Honest mistakes cure themselves. Cheaters would not care. So, with Ubet's rule, a minor rules tweak, any kids left in that spot would not be left out, would not have to pay their own way, and would be able to play and participate in the program in which they dreamed of playing, and the program would be sanctioned for promising more spots than it had.

And, if at any time prior to - say - 90 days from NLOI day, you tell a kid that he may have to grayshirt -, that he is a "maybe" spot depending on numbers - I still have no problem with that as long as there is disclosure, and any "disclosed" situation would not trigger the sanction. So every offer is binding on the program unless there is a written disclosure more than 90 days before saying that the kid's offer is a conditional spot. If he bolts, so be it. If he stays, so be it. If you do not tell him that he is conditional and you sign too many to enroll him, then he gets tuition and housing and a chance to play with the program if a sport opens up. But if you do not wind up giving him a scholy later, he still counts toward your 85 limit, even if he is not on a scholarship. And if you do find him a spot, then you still lose one spot the next year, even if he is on scholarship.

Spurrier has been coaching for a hell of a long time. He has run a clean program wherever he has landed. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for that. But not telling a kid until the day before of a grey shirt status is unacceptable and morally indefensible. As it seems that they told other kids of the conditional nature of the offers, they have no problem doing it and are not lying to everyone. I think this was just an honest miscalculation scenario. But to the kid, it does not (and should not) matter what the reason is for his schollie being yanked.

I have no problem with any kind of advance disclosure so that a kid and his parents can make an informed decision with sufficient time to find another spot somewhere - it should not be possible to yank a spot at the last minute. Force the school to enroll the kid, count the forced tuition and housing as a scholarship in the 85 total, even though he cannot play until he gets an official scholarship, and then dock the school one scholarship in the next year for every similar instance, even if by then there is room for the kid on scholarship because of drops, etc.

If you call that a "defense", knock yourself out.

 

[Gatorubet]

OK, just read the other articles more closely. Mauldin supposedly was informed for awhile that he might not have a spot. ESPN So getting a letter the day before signing day saying you are not currently getting in - and having it be your first knowlege of that , versus getting a letter the day before signing day confirming what you have orally been told for some time are two different things. In fact, I remember reading that the kid took a recruiting visit to Troy - like two weeks before LOI signing day. But now he is suddenly butt-hurt?

If this is the kid that was told all along that he might not make the first cut, but might have to wait, my sympathy meter just went down.

Grad - is Mauldin actually qualified now? I've read where Spurrier still is holding his sport as the qualifieds versus non-qualifieds work itself out.

 

[Gatorubet]

Phillip Dukes has now qualified for South Carolina. 1 more guaranteed schollie.

How many in that class are currently in qualified limbo Grad?

 

[GeorgiaBuck2]

Why would Gator care? From what I've seen, Florida doesn't over-sign.