Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[jwinslow]

Then again, it would be good to see if that language is included in the LOIs, though I doubt it. Anyone know offhand where we might be able to look at that language?

They are locked into that D1 school for an entire season. They can transfer but have to sit out a year if they want to play D1 ball.

It is a one-sided arrangement.

 

[Deety]

They are locked into that D1 school for an entire season. They can transfer but have to sit out a year if they want to play D1 ball.

It is a one-sided arrangement.

Yeah, that's where I'm unclear. How could not actually having that scholly for the full year not void that agreement? Both parties normally have to fulfill their obligations, though I understand the issue seems to be with the schools finding loopholes.

 

[SmoovP]

You and Gator keep putting that out there as though Nick Saban is having trouble with his reputation.

I've said repeatedly that the Gumps and Saban are dirty and that I won't defend him. His reputation to recruits is that of a winner. His reputation to competitors has some added dimensions. It is what it is.

But that's one of the perks - a 'competitive advatage' if you will - that schools like Bama enjoy. Bama is going to sign great classes no matter who is coaching. Same as OSU.

That Saban feels the need to take advantage of the grey areas is shitty.

But oversigning, in and of itself, isn't what it is being made out to be, and using it as a blunt instrument against the entire SEC is shitty too.

 

[jwinslow]

Yeah, that's where I'm unclear. How could not actually having that scholly for the full year not void that agreement? Both parties normally have to fulfill their obligations.

Because it is easy to have a kid not get through admissions. Coaches usually have to go to bat to get those cases through anyway (including Jim Tressel).

Those asked to greyshirt or spend a half season in juco ball (when they would bre redshirting anyway) will usually accept that destination rather than starting an ugly legal battle to get released from the scholarship, particularly since they usually still love the school in question despite the delay.

 

[jwinslow]

I've said repeatedly that the Gumps and Saban are dirty and that I won't defend him. His reputation to recruits is that of a winner. His reputation to competitors has some added dimensions. It is what it is.

Exactly. So the premise that 'if they're lying it will catch up to them' isn't a very reliable one.

But that's one of the perks - a 'competitive advatage' if you will - that schools like Bama enjoy. Bama is going to sign great classes no matter who is coaching. Same as OSU.

But they sign MUCH better ones with Saban than the last handful of staffs, particularly because they make many of the bad signees disappear from the roster.

That Saban feels the need to take advantage of the grey areas is shitty.

But oversigning, in and of itself, isn't what it is being made out to be, and using it as a blunt instrument against the entire SEC is shitty too.

Well I'm working on those numbers, but busy with life (in between our squabbles lol)

 

[Deety]

Because it is easy to have a kid not get through admissions. Coaches usually have to go to bat to get those cases through anyway (including Jim Tressel).

Those asked to greyshirt or spend a half season in juco ball (when they would bre redshirting anyway) will usually accept that destination rather than starting an ugly legal battle to get released from the scholarship, particularly since they usually still love the school in question despite the delay.

Good points. Okay, I'm back to wanting the kids over the number of schollies to sign something different. Something that says they know theirs is not among the guaranteed spots (speaking of availability, not the signee's eligibility). Also, something that releases them from the usual transfer requirements if it doesn't work out. That would be ethical and beneficial to both schools and students. It would have to be an NCAA-wide change.

 

[Muck]

I don't think it happens on the scale that seems to be the conventional wisdom around here though, nor do I think it happens at every SEC school.

I don't think anyone is saying it happens at every SEC school.

In fact I'm pretty sure that Georgia & Florida have been specifically singled out as schools that don't rely on the practice. Georgia fans in particular also seem to find it (oversigning) particularly distasteful. Vandy doesn't either but they march to the beat of a different drummer in most regards.

 

[SmoovP]

I don't think anyone is saying it happens at every SEC school.

In fact I'm pretty sure that Georgia & Florida have been specifically singled out as schools that don't rely on the practice. Georgia fans in particular also seem to find it (oversigning) particularly distasteful. Vandy doesn't either but they march to the beat of a different drummer in most regards.

In the flurry of posting over the past couple of hours, I'm guessing that most missed the most excellent link that GatorBoy provided.

http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2010/08/02/offering-a-helping-hand/

It has what seems to me to be a very reasonable and fair solution to the problem - one that I could get behind whole heartedly.

Of course, there is zero chance that the NCAA, in its infinite wisdom, would ever even consider it.

 

[MaxBuck]

The point that none of you guys will concede is that there is more to the issue than simple math.

No. The point is that you SEC fans come onto a message board run by and for fans of a Big Ten team, and try to persuade us that your view of the world is accurate and ours isn't.

I really don't happen to think this is as big a deal as many other Buckeye fans obviously do, but the continuing posts by you, Smoov (and I like having you here, don't get me wrong) and Gatorubet (and I like having him here ... well, maybe ... ) are bemusing to me. You aren't making any discernable headway in persuading any of us we're wrong. So what's the point?

 

[SmoovP]

No. The point is that you SEC fans come onto a message board run by and for fans of a Big Ten team, and try to persuade us that your view of the world is accurate and ours isn't.

I really don't happen to think this is as big a deal as many other Buckeye fans obviously do, but the continuing posts by you, Smoov (and I like having you here, don't get me wrong) and Gatorubet (and I like having him here ... well, maybe ... ) are bemusing to me. You aren't making any discernable headway in persuading any of us we're wrong. So what's the point?

It's what the internet was made for. Arguing over stupid shit that doesn't amount to anything, resolve anything or convince anyone of anything.

If we didn't do this, all that would be left is ESPN and Pr0n, and that would be boring.

 

[Gatorubet]

No. The point is that you SEC fans come onto a message board run by and for fans of a Big Ten team, and try to persuade us that your view of the world is accurate and ours isn't.

I really don't happen to think this is as big a deal as many other Buckeye fans obviously do, but the continuing posts by you, Smoov (and I like having you here, don't get me wrong) and Gatorubet (and I like having him here ... well, maybe ... ) are bemusing to me. You aren't making any discernable headway in persuading any of us we're wrong. So what's the point?

We both took a pledge to fight ignorance about the SEC wherever we may find it - and to fight especially hard when it affects those who we both like and admire.

So you see Max, we really have no choice here...

 

[Gatorubet]

Which kid?

The one who flunked out?

The one who got hurt?

The one who transferred for playing time?

Shhhhhhh....

You are ruining the mood for everybody.

 

[Gatorubet]

The reasons why over-signing gives schools a competitive advantage is simple. Simple enough that even a poor dumb schmoe like me can figure it out.

It gives them the ability to pursue a larger number of risky athletes while at the same time allowing them to lock up lesser talented but more academically stable players...just in case. They can essentially double dip the talent pool and effectively hold those Plan B kids hostage until the last possible moment.

Yes some of that responsibility should fall on the kids to know better but they are working from a massive position of weakness in these negotiations. Unfortunately they don't have an army of attorneys working overtime to help them understand and what their options really are nor do they have decades of institutional knowledge to fall back on.

If expecting the institutions you support to behave with honesty & integrity makes one 'holier than thou' then so be it. Guilty as charged.

Nah. That does not makes one 'holier than thou'. Saying ill-informed and pompous shit like the sentence in bold, below, does sort of make you look that way. But as today is your birthday, I'll just admit to being ethically challenged for you. :cheers:

If your defense comes down to little more than "well those kids could fuck the school over so why shouldn't the school be able to fuck them over?" then I'm afraid you and I have very different value systems.

Some get a BA in "Straw-men Attacking". Others take time off from work and personal life and obtain executive MBAs in "Straw-men Creation and Attacking". A minority of dedicated individuals put in the time, write the dissertation, and earn the title "PHD in Straw-men Invention and Application to Discussions Not Even Hinting At the Subjects Inferred while Vociferously Condemning Same".

My hat is off to you, Dr. Muck.

I have a pretty solid understanding when it comes to ethics and I'm sorry that you are differently capable in that regard.

Yes. Because a program having two potential verbals over their scholarship LOI limit - before National Signing Day and before any of the athletes have graduated and enrolled - can only be explained as "unethical". There can be no other explanation. It is inconceivable that any of the 30 will not enroll. And it is immoral and unethical to use prior years' experience regarding the likelihood of all of them enrolling to come up with an educated or informed opinion as to this year's class.

Certainly, if the Carolina staff knows in advance that one or two athletes will have to be placed in a junior college because of academic reasons, they owe a duty to Buckeye Planet to expose this NOW!....so that the sleep of its readers will not be disturbed with thoughts of the evils being perpetrated by the South Carolina gamecocks on humanity.

 

[sandgk]

We both took a pledge to fight ignorance about the SEC wherever we may find it

Defenders of the SEC - a new graphic novel with Gatorubet & SmoovP

 

[BB73]

In the flurry of posting over the past couple of hours, I'm guessing that most missed the most excellent link that GatorBoy provided.

http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2010/08/02/offering-a-helping-hand/

It has what seems to me to be a very reasonable and fair solution to the problem - one that I could get behind whole heartedly.

Of course, there is zero chance that the NCAA, in its infinite wisdom, would ever even consider it.

Since they've both posted it now, and it's a worthwhile read, I think that this link should be read and its suggestions considered before we continue pointing out the unholiness of all the oversigning in the SEC.