Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[SmoovP]

So if the cause and effect nexus of over-signing to performance was as strong as some would suggest, then it should be apparent that the Big East has better teams and perceived superior programs than the Big-10.

Indeed.

The Big Ten would barely be able to hang with anyone.

 

[Gatorubet]

I'm confused on exactly what oversigning is. Do athletic departments allow more than 85 scholarships?No. or are the coaches just accepting signed LOI's and not actually bringing in more than 85 kids to practice.Not all accepting LOIs will be admitted and play So is oversigning actually like over enrolling?No, only 85 can enroll and play no matter how many sign I guess my question is are these schools actually breaking rules?You can only have 85 schollies. It is now an SEC violation to accept over a certain number of LOIs Do they give actual scholarships to more than 85 football players each year?No. Or are they accepting LOI's that would put the scholarship total to more than 85?Yes - if they all got scholarships..but only 85 will actually receive them, so if all of the "over 85" are qualified and want to play, they are out of luck, which is wrong. Okay I'm asking the same questions in different ways I'll stop.

see red

 

[Gatorubet]

Indeed.

The Big Ten would barely be able to hang with anyone.

help arrives

 

[SmoovP]

Max, the only thing I was addressing was the competitive aspect of the equation. I said nothing - nothing - about morality or fairness to the athletes signed.

One could also make, if one wished, an argument about the morality and fairness of minimum academic standards for admission to a high quality institute of higher learning, couldn't one?

 

[jwinslow]

One could also make, if one wished, an argument about the morality and fairness of minimum academic standards for admission to a high quality institute of higher learning, couldn't one?

No, because everyone is playing by those same rules, and no one is confused about why those standardized, rule-based minimums are extended to those players.

 

[MaxBuck]

One could also make, if one wished, an argument about the morality and fairness of minimum academic standards for admission to a high quality institute of higher learning, couldn't one?

One could make a moral judgment on either side of this divide. Bottom line is, there are valid reasons why a school may have very high academic admission standards, and valid reasons why anyone with a pulse is admitted. Different colleges have very different educational missions.

 

[Gatorubet]

Well, you sure can't get me to see things in that way. Again, just very simply: being able to pick the best players from a pool of 96 is an advantage over getting to pick the best players from a pool of 85.

Is this an "overwhelming advantage?" Maybe not, but I will never be able to see it as anything less than very significant.

Again, if you know that five or ten of the kids will not qualify, there is no, none, zip, nada advantage. They are courtesy signees, with a hope that they will remember that first kiss in a year or two. More often than not a kid from JUCO will only weigh roster and starting chance...but it is a slight edge in a Juco recruiting battle, I will agree.

Multiple qualified kids over your scholly limit?? That is a BIG problem, as you should not leave kids out in the cold and pull scholies.

Which is exactly the reason why just looking at LOI signing will not tell the tale of actual competitive "leg up" status. Saying "they sign 50 more kids than us" makes not one jot of difference if the 50 kids are non- qualifiers. It makes a slight difference if they are all qualified, and the SEC launches them all to Missouri Southern Valley Tech State - assuming the coaching staff was not aware of their own ranking system. I mean, saying that "being able to pick the best players from a pool of 96 is an advantage" is only true if the SEC team had no idea at signing time which of the eleven extra kids were the ones they wanted. I kind of think they know who they want in the way of a #1, 2, or 3 pick.

Absolutely it sucks for the kid in that instance, but I doubt that it is a no big thing because all SEC schools treat kids like [Mark May] like Jwins says. Kids have siblings, classmates, friends, etc., h.s. coaches, etc, and dumping them like trash is not the norm.

All I am saying is that there is an abundance of allegation and a paucity of back up on this issue, and my one goal is not to defend the SEC in mistreating kids, but to demand that there be some kind of data to support some very broad and damning statements about how we routinely cheat in a way that gives us a significant competitive advantage over our Big-10 rivals.

 

[jwinslow]

Gator, just so we are on the same page, are you taking the stance that bama and lsu do not oversign?

o be honest, my biggest beef is with those two. You reference the 25 rule but that does little to stop bama from laughing at the schools which actually limit their verbals when they have few departing seniors. Uf did this a few yrs ago, will we ever see bama restrain themselves? Doubtful.

Let's get past the wide sweeping comparisons which are weak at best, particularly when they devolve into iowa st vs texas, or involve sample sizes of 1, and look at the heart of the issue.


Oversigning minimizes risk and erases mistakes faster. It does not change who you are.

Ole miss, iowa state and west virginis are still mediocre, so they get more chances in their piles of mediocrity. Same with rr the last three yrs (who both ushered kids out the door and recruited in a more southern way with verbals and decommitments). He got more do overs but he did not have the draw to do anything wirh it.

 

[MaxBuck]

Again, if you know that five or ten of the kids will not qualify, there is no, none, zip, nada advantage.

Any argument to the effect that oversigning is only done as a "courtesy" to kids the schools know will not qualify academically is silly on its face. Many offers are made; if there are too many cows in the barn at milking time, the cows who don't yield enough are sent out to make burgers. That is predominantly the way things work at Bama, Ole Miss, and likely LSU.

I haven't argued that the SEC, in engaging in oversigning, is "cheating." They are simply taking advantage of NCAA rules in a fashion that Big Ten schools cannot, because of conference rules that prevent it. To be clear on this -- I don't begrudge you this privilege. Just don't ask me to defend or admire it.

 

[Gatorubet]

One could also make, if one wished, an argument about the morality and fairness of minimum academic standards for admission to a high quality institute of higher learning, couldn't one?

One could certainly make such a claim about the disparity of resources. Isn't it unfair to compare the swamp and the shoe to the erector set stadiums of some of our competitors..and our locker rooms and weight rooms to those of the have nots?

It is not "fair". But it is not illegal. If a school chooses to keep a non-gifted athlete on for four one year schollies - while a competitor program strongly suggests that a non-gifted athlete on schollie seek greener fields, I think calling that competitor "immoral" is a stretch.

 

[MaxBuck]

If a school chooses to keep a non-gifted athlete on for four one year schollies - while a competitor program strongly suggests that a non-gifted athlete on schollie seek greener fields, I think calling that competitor "immoral" is a stretch.

Here, we agree. I'd save the "immoral" tag for use when a student-athlete who has been recruited as a "backup plan" is cast away due to "performance inadequacy" to JC oblivion when he could have flourished at a less prestigious school. And I'd guess that is a relatively uncommon occurrence.

 

[Gatorubet]

Again, if you know that five or ten of the kids will not qualify, there is no, none, zip, nada advantage.

Any argument to the effect that oversigning is only done as a "courtesy" to kids the schools know will not qualify academically is silly on its face. Many offers are made; if there are too many cows in the barn at milking time, the cows who don't yield enough are sent out to make burgers. That is predominantly the way things work at Bama, Ole Miss, and likely LSU.

Max, if you think that all of the offers are made because the recruiting staff absolutely believes that all of the signed athletes will be admitted at their institution, then I think you do not know how things are done in the real world of recruiting.

 

[MaxBuck]

Max, if you think that all of the offers are made because the recruiting staff absolutely believes that all of the signed athletes will be admitted at their institution, then I think you do not know how things are done in the real world of recruiting.

I think you have completely mischaracterized what I said. It's obvious that some entering freshman will prove to have academic inadequacies, and likely this is a bigger problem in Alabama and Mississippi than it is in Ohio (or, to be honest, Florida). But we have non-qualifiers, too; it's just that what we can do after the problem is fully realized is much more limited.

Briefly: some oversigning is done in anticipation of academic casualties. But certainly not all. And regardless of the reason for oversigning, the bottom line is that SEC schools are picking 85 scholarship athletes from a pool of 96, while the Big Ten is picking the same number of team members from a pool more like 85. Regardless of what the "reasons" were behind the oversigning, this constitutes a competitive advantage - and I'd think your conference members were stupid if they didn't exploit it.

 

[SmoovP]

All teams have an 85 man roster limit.

Until someone can show me quantifiable documentation that the SEC is cutting scholarship holding players in favor of high school seniors, on a scale beyond what happens elsewhere, I'm going to remain unconcerned about this mythical oversigning strawman.

Because most of the arguments I've read here are predicated upon the belief that kids are getting cut left, right and center.

 

[jwinslow]

Max, if you think that all of the offers are made because the recruiting staff absolutely believes that all of the signed athletes will be admitted at their institution, then I think you do not know how things are done in the real world of recruiting.

But does the kid know that if more kids qualify than their estimation predicted, they are not all welcome?

I want to look at bama specifically because they have created an annual tradition of signing way over their allotment each february, this being the third straight and they still have offers on the table to extend that abomination even further.

Each offseason there is a tracker to see how many current players get medical schollies, kicked off team for mild offenses or recruits are forced to attend jucos or grayshirt.

Also, if you think that all of the medical redshirts and transfers were not questionable and none were orchestrated, then you do not know much about college football. As grad said, it happens everywhere. Schoenhoft comes to mind for osu. It is simply more prevalent at bama, and is more blatant in its purpose given the game of musical chairs started each feb loi day.

Schools can plan knowing they will probably have 2-4 spots open up. They cannot honestly say that 10 spots will open up for bama (as most expect them to add a 1-2 more to their 8 over class)

They are not going to have a uf style swarm of early pro departures. Their departures will largely be of a different nature.