Ohio State 68, Columbia 54 (Final)

[jwinslow]

Huh? when did I say Matta didnt help the team last year? Matta's biggest help is recruiting the already talented players. I dont think Matta has proven himself to be a great developer of players, at least I havent seen it.

I just dont see him as a developer of talent

Sorry, but these lines are absurd. First of all, you seem to be wishing to strip Matta of credit for coaching b/c they came in with a lot of talent. Of course Matta isn't injecting them with his secret talent serum, but there are numerous examples of grooming those youngsters.

As for the idea that players aren't progressing here, I have no idea what team you are watching. David Lighty's progression was enormous last year. Conley, while immensely talented... took his game to another level later in the season. Do you remember the early conley, who was so tentative from the perimeter that he was often left unguarded there?

The team Matta inherited his first year was not that talented. He got them to play WAY above their ability for two years, and it eventually caught up with them in the tournament. How anyone can think Matta did not coach up those rosters is beyond me.

I think hes a good X's and O's coach, but so far as taking a decent player and making him great, i havent seen it.

Perhaps this is your disconnect... decent players don't have to become great to show good coaching. Turning liabilities into role players or good contributors is a sign of progression & coaching. Terwilliger was a limited player who has developed into a useful role player. Twigs used to look the way Madsen does now, but his game progressed nicely to the point where he stole quality minutes quite often.

Can you say he really developed Cook...whose game plumetted last year?

Not sure that he was very coachable, honestly.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

I've limited this to players Matta had for at least two years.

Records:
-03-04: 14-16 - Obie's last season
-04-05: 20-12
-05-06: 26-6
-06-07: 35-4

Terence Dials:
-03-04: 10.4 points, 6.6 rebounds
-04-05: 15.9 points, 7.9 rebounds
-05-06: 15.3 points, 8.0 rebounds, B10 POY

JJ Sullinger:
-03-04: 10.1 points, 4.6 rebounds
-04-05: 9.7 points, 5.4 rebounds
-05-06: 10.1 points, 7.0 rebounds

Ivan Harris:
-03-04: 3.4 points, 1.7 rebounds
-04-05: 7.3 points, 3.2 rebounds
-05-06: 3.6 points, .7 rebounds
-06-07: 7.6 points, 3.3 rebounds

Matt Sylvester:
-03-04: 3.1 points, 1.4 rebounds
-04-05: 8.0 points, 2.5 rebounds
-05-06: 7.4 points, 2.7 rebounds

Je'kel Foster:
-04-05: 7.7 points, 3.3 rebounds
-05-06: 12.2 points, 4.3 rebounds

Jamar Butler:
-04-05: 3.6 points, 1.8 rebounds, 2.3 assists
-05-06: 10.1 points, 3.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists
-06-07: 8.5 points, 2.1 rebounds, 3.7 assists

Matt Terwilliger:
-04-05: 1.5 points, .8 rebounds
-05-06: 2.3 poinsts, 1.6 assists
-06-07: 2.2 points, 1.8 assists

Ron Lewis:
-05-06: 11.2 points, 3.3 rebounds
-06-07: 12.7 points, 3.6 rebounds

Stats, plain and simple. I won't argue that all of OSU's players have developed as well as some would hope, but you have to keep in mind that the stats do NOT tell the whole story, no matter how many times it is said that they do.

I'll preface my comments with this..
I imagine that if one were to look at the production from an Obie team, one would see that the major production came from upperclassmen almost every single season. Why? Because O'Brien brought in players that were inferior to the ones he already had. When you bring in players that are better than the carryovers from the previous season, the stats will not indicate that the returners have improved, because they are still stuck behind better players.

Based on the stats, one could come to the conclusion that Butler regressed from 05-06 to last season, but the stats don't note that Butler was moved from the point with the ball in his hands every single play to the off-guard, a position he had never played before. If O'Brien were still the coach, I don't doubt that Butler would've averaged 15 points and 6 assists last season, but that would have been because the incoming point guard wasn't yet ready to contribute to the team.

What would Twiggy be averaging this season if Obie were coach? 30 minutes, 9-11 points, 4-6 rebounds? That seems about right to me based on Obie's success with players of similar experience and talents, but it wouldn't be because Twigs was a significantly better player than he is right now, it would be becuase he wasn't stuck riding the bench behind Koufos and Hunter. IMO, no amount of player development is going to make Twigs a better player than Koufos.

What do we expect out of Lighty this season? 10-12 points, 4-6 rebounds, 2-3 assists sound about right? What about next season when Buford takes over a significant portion of the scoring from the wing position? Does that mean Lighty has regressed or does it just mean that his role has changed?

I can see why one would conclude that Matta does not excel at development when compared to O'Brien, but I disagree. I see the perception as a result of differing philosphies. O'Brien brought in 2-4 middling players (decent 4-year players, no superstars) and as a result, the best players on the team were mostly those with the most experience and development. Matta is bringing in stars with every recruiting class now and those stars give the team a better chance to win than the returning players, so some guys continue to ride the pine. That doesn't mean they aren't improved, it just means they aren't improved enough to beat out the new guys. I can't imagine a scenario in which is Hunter, Madsen, and Lauderdale are going to be starting ahead of Mullens next season. Why? Because no amount of development will make them more talented or able than Mullens.

All I really know is that if you look at the very first set of stats I posted (don't scroll up, I'll go ahead and tell you it's just the teams record for each of the last four years), I think it's fair to say that Matta has a pretty good idea of what he is doing and what he wants to be doing and I'm going to go ahead and "trust the coaches" on this one.

I will say one final thing -- Thad Matta knows more about hoop than probably everyone else on this board in aggregate. And Coach Matta has placed Diebler in the starting lineup throughout the preseason and actual season games thus far.

That is my viewpoint on the issue as well. If Matta has seen enough in practice and games to keep Diebler in the starting lineup, that's good enough for me. It would be ideal for him to be knocking down some open shots, but there's obviously something there that the coaches like.

EDIT - as far as in-season improvements, that's a very difficult thing to measure. Conley and Oden very clearly improved over the course of last season. Lighty and Hunter also made strides; Lewis, Butler, and Twigs were fairly even; and Cook regressed. Nothing to back that up, just my general observations. 2 greatly improved, 2 improved, 3 constant, and 1 worsened.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some measure of improvement out of Diebler. I don't expect him to be All Big 10 or anything, but I do expect that his defense and shooting will improve.

 

[buckeyes_rock]

Not sure that he was very coachable, honestly.

Good point...you can't develop a kid who doesn't have the right attitude. Skill and potential are nothing w/o a good attitude. I don't know Deibler personnally, but the kid sure seems to have a good attitude so far.

 

[PennBuckFan]

Good point...you can't develop a kid who doesn't have the right attitude. Skill and potential are nothing w/o a good attitude. I don't know Deibler personnally, but the kid sure seems to have a good attitude so far.

Yeah, blame it on Cook not being coachable...and you are basing this on what?

Cook is leading the guards and forwards on his NBA team in shooting percentage right now and averaging the same points per game as he did in college...on a very poor team. So if he was so uncoachable why is he a shoe in for the All-Rookie team right now and why is he playing for a coach known for not playing rookies?

I think too many people base things on the way someone looks...like race, tattoos, hairstyle etc... What attitude difference do you see in Diebler from Cook. And I am not accepting commitment to defense because that is nonsense...Cook had 5 steals in his first two games last season so you need some more evidence on that. Cook rebounded and was 3rd on the team for the season in rebounds (had 18 in first two games). Why was Jon Diebler getting 76 points in games his team was leading by 40 at half time. Is that a way to treat kids on the opposing team? Also, you say he was being double teamed constantly last year, so why is he shooting while his team is up by 40 points...while being double teamed...shouldnt he have been passing? Diebler also backed out of a commitment to a college where his brother goes. So if you dont know him personally, tell me where this great attitude comes from? He played with a broken nose...ok, so every player who plays injured has a great attitude...by the way Cook was injured last season with things that affected his shot and handles (broken fingers and sprained knee, also played with bad leg cramps). Again, I think people need to get off of physical appearances and high school point totals. Also, dont tell me he didnt have other players on his team, Kevin Brodman had a higher 3 pt percentage in the tourney last year and in the final game hit just as many 3 pointers...on 14 less attempts (5 for 7 vs. 5 for 21).

 

[crazybuckfan40]

I have heard from people close to cook as this being the reason...

He knows now he has no choice, especially if he wants the paycheck...

He was sulking last season here, and that was the reasoning behind his decrease in minutes...

 

[jimotis4heisman]

ill defend cook like no one else. the kid can play cant get an argument from me. im going to bump another thread that has "civil and productive" discourse

pennbuckfan will you humor me and tell me a city of say greater than five thousand within 20 miles of you.

 

[jwinslow]

pennbuckfan will you humor me and tell me a city of say greater than five thousand within 20 miles of you.

Excellent question.

I think too many people base things on the way someone looks...like race, tattoos, hairstyle etc...

Well that makes loads of sense Clearly it's prejudice and bigotry speaking (not some Cook family comments and rapidly declining minutes), considering those we would compare him to were also black and tattooed

What attitude difference do you see in Diebler from Cook.

I have no idea what Diebler is like yet.... because rational assessment waits longer than two games to pidgeon-hole someone for an entire year. Cook certainly showed more offensively early on, though more was also expected from him than Diebler.

And I am not accepting commitment to defense because that is nonsense...Cook had 5 steals in his first two games last season so you need some more evidence on that.

Sorry, Cook's defense was lacking throughout the season, especially in b10 & tourney play. Bring up all the tiny sample sizes you want (ie two games), but those were not the trend.

Cook rebounded and was 3rd on the team for the season in rebounds (had 18 in first two games).

Wonderful. I don't remember anyone critiquing his rebounding.

Why was Jon Diebler getting 76 points in games his team was leading by 40 at half time. Is that a way to treat kids on the opposing team? Also, you say he was being double teamed constantly last year, so why is he shooting while his team is up by 40 points...while being double teamed...shouldnt he have been passing? Diebler also backed out of a commitment to a college where his brother goes. So if you dont know him personally, tell me where this great attitude comes from? He played with a broken nose...ok, so every player who plays injured has a great attitude...by the way Cook was injured last season with things that affected his shot and handles (broken fingers and sprained knee, also played with bad leg cramps). Again, I think people need to get off of physical appearances and high school point totals. Also, dont tell me he didnt have other players on his team, Kevin Brodman had a higher 3 pt percentage in the tourney last year and in the final game hit just as many 3 pointers...on 14 less attempts (5 for 7 vs. 5 for 21).

The guy admitted he didn't know Jon personally, but seemed to have an okay attitude so far. It sure seems like you have some personal history with him (even just a fan of a rival school perhaps) and feel the need to point out all of his character flaws from high school.

 

[PennBuckFan]

I have heard from people close to cook as this being the reason...

He knows now he has no choice, especially if he wants the paycheck...

He was sulking last season here, and that was the reasoning behind his decrease in minutes...

Im really curious what person close to Cook said Cook wasnt performing because of lack of motivation and sulking...I guarantee you wont say who, because its a complete lie, but its cool. You do not know Cook and I find it hilarious you would try to imply you know people around him. Trust me, Cook worked incredibly hard last year and never practiced or worked any harder than he did during his slump. If anything he worked too hard and tired himself out, but I am interested in who you make up as your "source" close to Cook. I am just curious...since you know people really close to him...close enough to know his motivation and drive in basketball; how many kids does DC have and how many nephews. Since you know the people around him so well, surely youll know those answers. My guess...you wont respond.

Maybe you should watch OT against Xavier, Cook's wrist bent and held after his shot, his arm extended and him laughing and smiling as he runs back down the court.

Or how about the post championship rally at the Schott where he was interviewed and couldnt stop laughing...yeah he looked real disgruntled there.

Or when he was on the sidelines at the spring game...yeah he really acted like a guy who was unhappy.

If you knew anything about Cook or knew him whatsoever you would know that if it was as simple as feeling slighted, he would have played better. It was mostly a confidence issue, but also had to deal with injuries, fatigue, and a new situation.

People need to stop imagining things. Fact is, guys who are sulking and not putting forth effort and who are 6'4, do not average the 3rd most rebounds on the team in the 6th most minutes. Cook wasnt happy that Lewis and Butler were starting over him when Cook was outproducing them and then he lost some confidence in his shot, but he wasnt sulking out on the court. Maybe he sulked on the bench, i dont know, but the kid never bad mouthed Matta and never was lazy on the court.

Im really eagerly anticipating your source though.

Also, JimOtis, maybe you should go to australia if you want to be 5,000 miles away from me. Water drains in the opposite way so maybe point guard means= guy who never dribbles, never drives, leads team in turnovers, has fewer assists than the backup small forward, never creates own shot, never brings ball up the court, is called shooting guard and in over 50% of possessions never touches the ball.

Again the statement was made "i dont know diebler personally but he seems to have a great attitude." That statement was made after a slight about COok's attitude. The question is how do you get Diebler has a great attitude.

The school I have family at beat Diebler's team last year and didnt even get a chance to beat them two years ago since US lost to Willard 3 times that season, so I dont have a dog in the fight, but let me ask you this; if Jared Sullinger in the summer of 2009 backs out of his commitment to go to OSU and goes to Duke instead citing "A better program at a more elite level that will provide more exposure"...would you be fine with it? Would you think he had a good attitude and good character? Because thats what Diebler did with Valpo. I think many people would bash Jared, but OSU is at the winning end of this deal so lets say Diebler has a good attitude. If it was your son whose team was losing 64-16 in a highschool game at halftime and the other teams star guard in the 2nd half continued to dribble the ball up the court, run no clock out and hurriedly shoot deep 3's so that he can get a record, would you say "that kid has great charcter?" Something tells me you wouldnt.

I didnt bring up the character and attitude thing, people here did, im just questioning where it comes from. Same with Cook, the kid is obviously coachable, Pat Reilly is proving it. Then someone says based on inside sources close to Cook, he wasnt playing well or getting minutes because he was sulking. Thats clearly a lie and he wont respond where he heard it from. Im not biased in this matter whatsoever, I would have loved for Diebler to come out and play at a high level, but the fact that people on here say, "He has been the most impressive player so far," just shows how clearly biased people are. The guy has made 1 fieldgoal in 46 minutes of play..he leads the team in turnovers, yet people on here are talking about him like hes Jordan. I dont get it, but if thats "the most impressive" to you,then theres no way I can help.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

if Jared Sullinger in the summer of 2009 backs out of his commitment to go to OSU and goes to Duke instead citing "A better program at a more elite level that will provide more exposure"...would you be fine with it?

Folks here would be disappointed, but I can't imagine any reasonable person would use that as a basis for judging him to have poor character. It's his life and he doesn't owe a damn thing to anyone of us. And until he signs a letter, he is allowed to change his mind. Go read the Luke Babbitt thread and see the responses after he changed his commitment to Nevada. Disappointment and understanding. No one called him names. No one asserted that he was a degenerate for changing his mind.

And for the record, we aren't talking a small step up. The opportunity to play for a mid-major like Valpo and get exposure maybe in the first two rounds of the NCAA....or one of the hottest (read: most hyped recently) programs in the nation....hmmmm....yeah, tough call. Guys change verbals all the time. If you want to make that a sign of poor character, you just go ahead and do so....

Thats clearly a lie and he wont respond where he heard it from.

Won't respond? This is the only post I recall reading where you asked him for a source....he hasn't exactly had a chance to respond.

yet people on here are talking about him like hes Jordan.

Thank god we aren't resorting to hyperbole or anything. No one said he was the next fucking Jordan.

I dont get it, but if thats "the most impressive" to you,then theres no way I can help.

Then do all of us imbeciles a favor and stop posting.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

Not going to bother quoting your post, because honestly it is filled with shit that I don't care to respond to and deserves no response...

Maybe it is your posting style, maybe you are close to Cook and the Dunbar program...I dunno...But what I do know is that after 8 posts it is already getting old...

I have my sources, people on here know that...I don't have to check them at the door with you...

But honestly I am checking out of this discussion it is going nowhere, and we are not here to beat a dead horse...

Cook was what he was last year...We are on to this year and some of the young guys might of had struggles thru 2 games, but 2 games does not a season make, and we will be just fine as Matta molds another team into a winner...

 

[PennBuckFan]

Not going to bother quoting your post, because honestly it is filled with shit that I don't care to respond to and deserves no response...

Maybe it is your posting style, maybe you are close to Cook and the Dunbar program...I dunno...But what I do know is that after 8 posts it is already getting old...

I have my sources, people on here know that...I don't have to check them at the door with you...

But honestly I am checking out of this discussion it is going nowhere, and we are not here to beat a dead horse...

Cook was what he was last year...We are on to this year and some of the young guys might of had struggles thru 2 games, but 2 games does not a season make, and we will be just fine as Matta molds another team into a winner...

Told you he wouldnt list a source. I didnt need to ask really, i can tell when someone is flat out lying. Again, if you have a source so close to Cook that you know his mental state throughout the season, you would know how many kids and nephews he has and wouldnt have to reveal the source. You dont have a source so why try to defame a player who gave all he could last year to OSU. Even if you dont know someone close to Cook, having a source such as a player or coach would know this one; how many fingers did Cook break last year? Youre not going to answer and its fine, but you shouldnt lie about having sources close to a player who said he purposefully wasnt trying, thats just scummy.

 

[Mike80]

Told you he wouldnt list a source. I didnt need to ask really, i can tell when someone is flat out lying. Again, if you have a source so close to Cook that you know his mental state throughout the season, you would know how many kids and nephews he has and wouldnt have to reveal the source. You dont have a source so why try to defame a player who gave all he could last year to OSU. Even if you dont know someone close to Cook, having a source such as a player or coach would know this one; how many fingers did Cook break last year? Youre not going to answer and its fine, but you shouldnt lie about having sources close to a player who said he purposefully wasnt trying, thats just scummy.

Are you his agent or something? Seriously

CBF40 has some absolutely kick ass sources.....

 

[Mike80]

I think too many people base things on the way someone looks...like race, tattoos, hairstyle etc...

which is why guys like Greg Oden or Mike Conley or Michael Redd are essentially idolized on this forum right?

 

[jwinslow]

Also, JimOtis, maybe you should go to australia if you want to be 5,000 miles away from me

Obviously reading is not your strong suit.

People need to stop imagining things. Fact is, guys who are sulking and not putting forth effort and who are 6'4, do not average the 3rd most rebounds on the team in the 6th most minutes.

More absurdity. If Jon Diebler starts bringing down a lot of boards, does it prove his effort on the defensive end too... as is your bizarre attempt at translation with cook?

The school I have family at beat Diebler's team last year and didnt even get a chance to beat them two years ago since US lost to Willard 3 times that season, so I dont have a dog in the fight

Sorry, when you rip on a player's dad and rip on numerous details from his HS season, you obviously have a pretty strong view on the Diebler family and are not unbiased (or 'dog'-less as you suggest).

if Jared Sullinger in the summer of 2009 backs out of his commitment to go to OSU and goes to Duke instead citing "A better program at a more elite level that will provide more exposure"...would you be fine with it? Would you think he had a good attitude and good character? Because thats what Diebler did with Valpo.

Ridiculous comparison. One, Jared is already a superstar recruit. Two, OSU is not a tiny bball school. Let's try a useful comparison: Diebler's committed to Obie in the early 00's, but as he matures he develops into an elite prospect. With more options coming his way, he decides to step away from his very early decision (to follow his bro) and go to a better school. We'd all be sad, but the logic of such a decision is obvious.

I think many people would bash Jared but OSU is at the winning end of this deal so lets say Diebler has a good attitude.

Completely false. Any human is going to enjoy gain over loss, but that gain is not why he thought diebler had a good attitude so far. Pretending that it was is disengenious and intentionally deceptive.

It's obvious he thinks he's had a good attitude on the court thus far, from what little he's seen.

Told you he wouldnt list a source. I didnt need to ask really, i can tell when someone is flat out lying.

And once again you are flat out wrong. His source is well established here.

 

[jwinslow]

Since you might duck the above post like the other two... I'll put this here

Fact is, guys who are sulking and not putting forth effort and who are 6'4, do not average the 3rd most rebounds on the team in the 6th most minutes.

Boy, that sure sounds familiar

so rebounds come easy? Yeah i dont think a 6'4 guy who gets the 6th most minutes on the team would get the 3rd most rebounds if he liked what came easy.