Ohio State 64 Minny 58 (Final)

[Jake]

Hey, stop proving my rage incorrect.

It's all good. We win! :highfive:

 

[EDDIE GGGG27]

Another great win. I hate that hapuerer guy!!!!!!

 

[brutus2002]

*sigh* Don't follow your shot huh...tell that to MSU man...watch some basketball. Thats how Northwestern gets half of their rebounds are on 3's where the player follows his shot(Coble & Moore)...shake head...you attack the board whether your shooting, your mom's shooting, the mascots shooting, or the waterboy shooting or you will find your butt on the bench at MSU.

I know teams can run on you if you don't have someone back but if you let it go and drop back everytime you better shoot your butt of or the other team will outrebound you horribly!!!

Izzo coached kiwanis or junior high...I guess

MSU crashes the boards...everyone...Michigan gets offensive rebounds the same way *sigh* Ask Manny Harris(I hate using Michigan players as an example)Northwesten too...I guess their coaches are junior high quality or kiwanis.

 

[billmac91]

*sigh* Don't follow your shot huh...tell that to MSU man...watch some basketball. Thats how Northwestern gets half of their rebounds are on 3's where the player follows his shot(Coble & Moore)...shake head...you attack the board whether your shooting, your mom's shooting, the mascots shooting, or the waterboy shooting or you will find your butt on the bench at MSU.

I know teams can run on you if you don't have someone back but if you let it go and drop back everytime you better shoot your butt of or the other team will outrebound you horribly!!!

Izzo coached kiwanis or junior high...I guess

MSU crashes the boards...everyone...Michigan gets offensive rebounds the same way *sigh* Ask Manny Harris(I hate using Michigan players as an example)Northwesten too...I guess their coaches are junior high quality or kiwanis.

You just have zero clue what you are talking about. I'd really like to know how many offensive rebounds are collected by the shooter in MSU's scheme??

When announcers and coaches talk about teams with guards that crash the glass, they aren't talking about the offensive end of the court. It's teams that teach their guards how to crash defensively. Unfortunately for teams that teach their guards to crash and focus on rebounding, they have a very difficult time scoring in transition because no guards release upcourt (think UCLA, Washington State, Northwestern).

College coaches, and most high school coaches teach floor balance on the offensive side of the court. If a perimeter shooter takes a deep shot, he needs to be safety to prevent the fast break. If a shooter follows his shot, he better damn well come up with the board, otherwise his ass is getting chewed out for allowing the other team an easy 2 or 3 on 1 fast break.

Honestly Brutus, you just have zero clue on this. It's OK for a PF or Center to follow and get aggressive on outside shots b/c the floor is generally balanced and they can rely on perimeter players to be back. But guards just don't crash.

And MSU's offensive boards are due to their aggressive big men. MSU has active big men that are constantly fighting for inside position even before shots go up. It is a mindset. And it takes unbelievable discipline and understanding of what you are trying to do. If Raymar Morgan, Delvon Roe, or Goran Suton see a swing pass leading to an open shot in the opposte corner, they are already fighting for rebounding position by getting inside their man. That is why Tom Izzo is the best coach in the Big 10. It isn't always fun to watch, but it's the most disciplined basketball year after year. It isn't because he is asking Kalin Lucas or Travis Walton to clean up the glass in an effort to "follow their shot".

 

[buckeyes_rock]

Just looking at the box score and saw that Buford, Diebler and Turner played all 40 minutes! That's a lot to ask of these guys. I worry a little bit that all the minutes these guys are playing might affect their jump shots down the stretch...especially as hard as these guys go on defense. Of course, not like we have a better alternative. It would be so nice to have some MSU-type depth.

 

[Jake]

Just looking at the box score and saw that Buford, Diebler and Turner played all 40 minutes! That's a lot to ask of these guys. I worry a little bit that all the minutes these guys are playing might affect their jump shots down the stretch...especially as hard as these guys go on defense. Of course, not like we have a better alternative. It would be so nice to have some MSU-type depth.

Reminds me of Butler last year, playing 40 night after night. He went through some doldrums late in the regular season, but the break after the BTT seemed to energize him for the NIT run.

The problem last night was both BJ and Dallas got 2 fouls early, so Thad couldn't rotate them and give the three amigos some short rests.

 

[MaxBuck]

The problem last night was both BJ and Dallas got 2 fouls early, so Thad couldn't rotate them and give the three amigos some short rests.

Good observation here. Sometimes problems at the "bigs" trickle down to problems at the wing.


Thought you'd enjoy the "trickle-down" ref, Jake.

 

[DocJohn]

The Wizard of Westwood

You just have zero clue what you are talking about. I'd really like to know how many offensive rebounds are collected by the shooter in MSU's scheme??

When announcers and coaches talk about teams with guards that crash the glass, they aren't talking about the offensive end of the court. It's teams that teach their guards how to crash defensively. Unfortunately for teams that teach their guards to crash and focus on rebounding, they have a very difficult time scoring in transition because no guards release upcourt (think UCLA, Washington State, Northwestern).

College coaches, and most high school coaches teach floor balance on the offensive side of the court. If a perimeter shooter takes a deep shot, he needs to be safety to prevent the fast break. If a shooter follows his shot, he better damn well come up with the board, otherwise his ass is getting chewed out for allowing the other team an easy 2 or 3 on 1 fast break.

Honestly Brutus, you just have zero clue on this. It's OK for a PF or Center to follow and get aggressive on outside shots b/c the floor is generally balanced and they can rely on perimeter players to be back. But guards just don't crash.

And MSU's offensive boards are due to their aggressive big men. MSU has active big men that are constantly fighting for inside position even before shots go up. It is a mindset. And it takes unbelievable discipline and understanding of what you are trying to do. If Raymar Morgan, Delvon Roe, or Goran Suton see a swing pass leading to an open shot in the opposte corner, they are already fighting for rebounding position by getting inside their man. That is why Tom Izzo is the best coach in the Big 10. It isn't always fun to watch, but it's the most disciplined basketball year after year. It isn't because he is asking Kalin Lucas or Travis Walton to clean up the glass in an effort to "follow their shot".

Excellent debate here by billmac and brutus. I commend you both for keeping
it civil and informative. After a long absence, I feel compelled to contribute.

At issue here: Is it better for an outside shooter to "follow his shot" or to
"fall back on defense".

In this day and age when the line between positions is blurred at best, it really
doesn't matter whether the shooter is a guard, forward or center. As long as
zone defenses are still legal in college basketball, the perimeter defender is more
likely to be a guard and therefore the most likely candidate to release for the
fast break. This would seem to support billmac's position that the perimeter
shooter's responsibility is to "get back on defense" because it is "his man"
starting the break. But...

No less than John Wooden was oft quoted as stating that the "shooting guard
is at a big disadvantage" to protect against the break and therefore it is the
responsibility of the "non-shooting guard" {only guards took perimeter shots
back then...with some notable rare exceptions--Can you imagine Kareem
taking a perimeter shot? I think he took THREE treys in his 26? years in the
NBA.}, to "rotate back on defense". "Defensive Rotation" is probably comparable
to what today we call "Floor Balance", even though the latter could apply to
offense as well.

On the other hand, "the shooter has a distinct advantage" to the rebound
because, more than anyone on the floor, "he knows where the shot is going."
Tom Izzo, perhaps the best "Defensive" coach of our time has commented,
"Team defense kicks in as soon as the ball is released." He was referring to
the ball being released from his shooter. There is no doubt In my mind that,
except for the man responsible for falling back to defend the break, there are
four Spartens crashing the offensive boards, including the shooter. The point
being, you can't start the break without the ball. Izzo: "The best defense
against a running team is a offensive putback."

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jake]

Good observation here. Sometimes problems at the "bigs" trickle down to problems at the wing.


Thought you'd enjoy the "trickle-down" ref, Jake.

I prefer "you cannot help the weak by tearing down the strong".

 

[MaxBuck]

I prefer "you cannot help the weak by tearing down the strong".

I'm sure you do, but how that relates to the early foul calls on Lauderdale and Mullens is a bafflement to me.

 

[mooktarr]

A good win for the Bucks and they can build some great momentum after these last wins.

 

[buckeyes_rock]

A good win for the Bucks and they can build some great momentum after these last wins.