Notre Shame must get the Black Athlete

[coxew]

Yeah I guess Randy must have had pretty good grades and would have been at ND if not for that fight he got into on high school. Man... wow! What could have been........

I heard on the radio this morning that Holtz actually called Bowden and recommended he give Moss a chance. Was ND and FSU not playing at the time? I can't imagine a coach calling a rival and suggesting he take a chance on a talent like that knowing it could come back to bite you in the ass. Of course it never happened so I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

[Cincinnatibuck]

Facts:

2. What he said, while not 'politically correct', is true. And everyone knows it.

No it's not true. Every black athletic kid doesn't need to have the admission standards lowered just to get into Notre Dame. Recruiting is not easy as it once was. If this is the type of player that you want on your team you need to find that player and sell your program. Just being Notre Dame will no longer automatically get you that player.

3. The ONLY reason people are pissed about this is the same reason why they all got pissed about Janet Jackson's titty. Weak minded sheeple are always compelled to carry the flag against 'racism' and 'indecency' because, in their minds, it improves their standing as a 'human being'.

No, I'm pissed because as an black male who lettered in four varsity sports in high school and one in college I consider myself (used to be) athletic. I also don't think I would of needed any help getting accepted to Notre Dame as I managed to get a full ride to the University of Dayton. Oh, by the way that was an academic scholarship. As a side note, during my senior year in high school our most athletic player on the basketball team, who was white, was ruled academically ineligible half way through the season.

4. This is nothing more than another slip of the tongue by a member of the sports world that is being blown out of proportion for no other purpose than to get people to tune into SportsCenter.

I've always believed that one of the easiest things a person can ever do is apologize. This was no slip of the tongue. If there was no reaction from the public about his statement, do you actual believe that he would of apologized or changed his statement.

5. It will be forgotten in a matter of weeks.

You're probably right, because some other ignorant person will make a stupid comment that we can all talk about.

 

[Sloopy45]

Cincy: "No, I'm pissed because as an black male who lettered in four varsity sports in high school and one in college I consider myself (used to be) athletic."

Can I ask you a question (to preface, I'm white as a cue ball)? Why does this offend you? Who cares? If someone says, "All Italians are mobsters," I don't get offended or care. Obviously, Hornung didn't mean ALL black athletes aren't smart enough to get into ND .. obviously he's just an old man saying his piece, and obviously, it was a dumb thing to say .. I don't understand why this is an issue.

Do you, as a black man, think that the best thing for your people is to constantly belabor these politically incorrect points in the media? Is that really helping your fellow man as a whole? Sometimes it comes across to me that the black leadership & black population as a whole is more concerned with what people like Paul Hornung say and not with what really matters: getting black kids (who can't afford it otherwise) into college, and real social matters like that.

 

[DiHard]

one: what is funniest about this episode is that it is the predominantly white media and its talking heads (patrick and kornholer) that are throwing the biggest tizzy fit....the african-americans that i have heard (ismael, wilbon, etc..) are actually talking about the real issues...admission standards and what should be done...

ndchief: i was referring to the nd admissions group that only looks at test scores and doesnt take the individual into account anymore....wilbon said he would have never gotten into northwestern on scores...it took an admissions rep to take a sincere interest in him and learn more about him...and determine that wilbon would be someone northwestern would want....
ismael also said that he wouldnt have been able to go to nd now...back then they gave him a chance....

 

[FCollinsBuckeye]

I think CinciBuck and others are perfectly justified in being angered at the original comment. All Hornung is doing with his statement is perpetuating a stereotype: that black athletes are not as smart as white, which I think is a load of $&($%&.

 

[Cincinnatibuck]

Sloopy I should of stated "Why" I would be pissed by the statements. Stupid comments like this is becoming so frequent that when you add it all up it gets fustrating. I guess I was more pissed by the statements made by Vrbryant in his post that I truely was with what Hornung said that's why I responded back to what he wrote than just Hornung's statement.

Do you, as a black man, think that the best thing for your people is to constantly belabor these politically incorrect points in the media?

The best thing for "my people" would be to not have to constantly prove we are equal to any other man. I don't find Hornung's statement as being politically incorrect, just incorrect. I don't think "my people" react any different to the way "your people" react every time Jesse Jackson or the like steps onto his/her soapbox which he usually does when one of "your people" adds fuel to his fire.

I just want to mention that not all black males or females are "my people. "My people" crosses many races and nationalities.

If someone says, "All Italians are mobsters," I don't get offended or care.

Why would you be offended by something that is true.

Sometimes it comes across to me that the black leadership & black population as a whole is more concerned with what people like Paul Hornung say and not with what really matters: getting black kids (who can't afford it otherwise) into college, and real social matters like that.

Some people would consider the statement made by Paul Hornung as a real social matter and not all those people are black. I don't know the race of everyone on this thread but I would bet that there is a least one white person who found his statement wrong and offensive. It's not only offensive to black athletes that are good academic students, but white athletes as well. Isn't it the responsibility of "all people" to insure that "all kids" can afford to go to college. It shouldn't be up to the black leadership and black population to fight to get black kids into college that couldn't afford to attend.

 

[Sloopy45]

Cincy: "I just want to mention that not all black males or females are "my people. "My people" crosses many races and nationalities."

First of all, don't quote "my people" & "your people." I said it in the context of the conversation with 'your people' being your nationality & with you, being a black man, not as an insult. If you take it as such, you're either a.) ignorant, b.) ashamed to be black, or c.) looking to start a fight. And lets not mince words, I am one of the few white people who isn't afraid to cross P.C. boundaries and call a black man stupid if its warranted.

"Stupid comments like this is becoming so frequent that when you add it all up it gets fustrating."

This statement makes no sense. "Stupid comments" like these are less frequent today than they've ever been. Race relations in this country will never move forward unless you & many other black people stop imagining that every white person hates you & is out to get you. One of my good friends in college used to tell me what he feels like being black, and what I took from it (from the other perspective) was that racial hostility is much more prevalent in his mind (being defensive about it) than most white people's offensive nature regarding it.

"The best thing for "my people" would be to not have to constantly prove we are equal to any other man."

Every man has stuff to prove in life. Life is a competition. Its dog-eat-dog, and no one's looking to give you a helping hand. I have to compete to prove that I'm the equal or superior to people of all nationalities every day, and so does everybody else. Are you suggesting that black people should get a free pass in this area because of the color of their skin? Constantly proving yourself is not a race issue, its reality - and each individual has to do the same damn thing every day.

"Why would you be offended by something that is true."

Just how low do we have to get those scores to get "you people" into Notre Dame anyway?

"Isn't it the responsibility of "all people" to insure that "all kids" can afford to go to college. It shouldn't be up to the black leadership and black population to fight to get black kids into college that couldn't afford to attend."

You're 100% right. But, in reality, we know that not everyone is going to band together to do this. My point is, people like the Reverend Al & Jesse Jackson have become multi-multi millionaires making TV Appearences and leading protests everytime Al Campanis, Paul Hornung, Billy Packer, or whoever makes a stupid comment. My point is, what good are these "leaders" doing for the black community? Really? Other than lining their pockets, wouldn't their time and energy be better spent (helping their people, as they claim) by taking the hour that they normally would spend at a photo-op or at a useless protest to drum up support or money for the UNCF?

 

[Cincinnatibuck]

Sloopy you couldn't be more wrong with your entire post.

I clarified who I considered those to be "my people" because you lumped me with a group a people soley based on my skin color. It wasn't taken as an insult, however I wanted to let you know and any one else who reads this know how silly it sounds. Just because we have the same skin color doesn't mean we all act and belief the same things. Not wanting to be put in a group with all blacks has nothing to do with how proud I am of being black.

This statement makes no sense. "Stupid comments" like these are less frequent today than they've ever been. Race relations in this country will never move forward unless you & many other black people stop imagining that every white person hates you & is out to get you. One of my good friends in college used to tell me what he feels like being black, and what I took from it (from the other perspective) was that racial hostility is much more prevalent in his mind (being defensive about it) than most white people's offensive nature regarding it.

Just because you might not hear comments doesn't mean they're not being said. Race relations is this country will never move forward until we all admit there still is a problem. If I believed that white people hate me and are out to get me I probably shouldn't go home to my wife tonight. I probably shouldn't be in one of my good friends wedding next month now that I think about it.

"Why would you be offended by something that is true. "
Just how low do we have to get those scores to get "you people" into Notre Dame anyway?

I see my little joke struck a never, but hey you don't get offended by those comments.

Every man has stuff to prove in life. Life is a competition. Its dog-eat-dog, and no one's looking to give you a helping hand. I have to compete to prove that I'm the equal or superior to people of all nationalities every day, and so does everybody else. Are you suggesting that black people should get a free pass in this area because of the color of their skin? Constantly proving yourself is not a race issue, its reality - and each individual has to do the same damn thing every day.

Talk about taking something out of context. No one is asking for a hand out, especially me. If you didn't understand what I stated, you never will. It has nothing to do with the daily activities that each person must go through to survive or prove thier worth.

My point is, people like the Reverend Al & Jesse Jackson have become multi-multi millionaires making TV Appearences and leading protests everytime Al Campanis, Paul Hornung, Billy Packer, or whoever makes a stupid comment. My point is, what good are these "leaders" doing for the black community? Really? Other than lining their pockets, wouldn't their time and energy be better spent (helping their people, as they claim) by taking the hour that they normally would spend at a photo-op or at a useless protest to drum up support or money for the UNCF?

According to you there haven't been many recent stupid comments made so I guess the people you have mentioned aren't doing many tv appearance or leading protest. These so called leaders are a voice that gets heard that represents some (not all) people who have no other way of being heard. That doesn't mean everything they do or say is 100% how every black citizen feels.

If all that makes me ignorant, then I'm one edumucated ignant mofo.

 

[Sloopy45]

Cincy, you're either misinterpreting what I'm saying, or we disagree big time. Onto your post:

"I clarified who I considered those to be "my people" because you lumped me with a group a people soley based on my skin color."

No I didn't. My exact quote was, "Do you, as a black man, think that the best thing for your people is to constantly belabor these politically incorrect points in the media?" You said you were black. I asked you what your opinion was of black people waging these wars in the media. I never so much as mentioned another nationality, much less lumped you in to anything.

"Just because we have the same skin color doesn't mean we all act and belief the same things."

I never said or implied that this was the case. But, when you are a part of a group, you fall under an umbrella when a leader speaks for you. Case in point: a person from another country would take me to task as an American if George Bush was doing something that he/she didn't agree with. It doesn't necessarily mean I whole-heartedly agree with what Bush does or did in this hypothetical situation, and it doesn't necessarily mean that a majority agrees with what Bush does or did.

"Just because you might not hear comments doesn't mean they're not being said."

Hey, I don't deny that there are still hard-core racists, and still hard-core comments in this country. My only point is that its better now than it ever was, and it'll only get better in the future. You can't compare race relations in the 00's with the 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's. Is it perfect now? No way. But its improving, and getting better each day.

"Race relations is this country will never move forward until we all admit there still is a problem."

I don't know of anyone on either side denying that there is a problem.

"I see my little joke struck a never, but hey you don't get offended by those comments."

Actually, I wasn't offended - I rather enjoyed your comment and thought it was funny. I was excercising my right as an equal Americans to poke fun at your race, the same as you having fun with mine.

"Talk about taking something out of context. No one is asking for a hand out, especially me. If you didn't understand what I stated, you never will."

I guess I never will. I don't pretend to know what its like to be a Black man in this country, but I'm sure you'd rather have me be honest and say, "I don't know," than for me to try and fake it.

"According to you there haven't been many recent stupid comments made so I guess the people you have mentioned aren't doing many tv appearance or leading protest."

No, I said there haven't been many stupid statements today IN COMPARISON with the past. Again, you're misinterpreting things.

 

[Naplesbuckeye]

This is a spirited and well thought out debate....I am so happy that there is a forum for such things to be discussed. Paranthetically, how long do you believe this thread would of lasted on Bucknuts?

 

[Oh8ch]

I think the direction this thread has taken highlights the problems with Hornung's original statement.

I believe there is a correlation between being black and low academic achievement. But this is not cause and effect. The stronger correlation is between low income households and poor academic performance - where there likley is a cause and effect relationship. Since there is also in this country a historic correlation between being black and being raised in a low income household it stands to reason that a higher proportion of blacks will experience low academic achievement. But his has nothing to do with their being black.

If Hornung had said ND needed to lower their academic standards to increase the pool from which they can recruit athletes (including whites with low academic achievement) his statement would have been accurate and I would have had no objection. But by saying it the way he did he reinforced the stereotype that a cause and effect relationship exists between being black and having low academic achievement. Hornung gave himself away with the way he worded his statement. As a graduate of a college with the high academic standards of ND he should be capable of better. That stereotype exists in the minds of many and if a public personality chooses to reinforce it they should be called on it. Hornung's comment was racist and reinfirces an idea that causes many an employer to make their decision about a job candidate by color first (be it consciously or subconsciously) then rationalize that decision based on some other criteria.

 

[DiHard]

i thought the government dictated whether or not a company needs to hire a minority or not.....
lets see...im at 34% minority employment and the government says i have to be at 36%....guess i have to throw all these white candidates out...... :crazy:

dont take what i said to seriously....just throwing out a counter point....

 

[NorthShoreBuck]

Very charged issue.

One thing I can add is that the frequency of such comments may be less but the rapid spread through 24/7 media outlets and the internet make them much better known. Contraversy gets ratings and sells papers.

Due to this fact something else will happen this week or next that the press will jump on. This will be put to the back burner.

PH is obviously an old man living on his past glory that said something he probably believes which proves he is not that intelligent. If he were more intelligent he would have said lower the standards for all to get the better athletes. It still would not help, ND has other problems.

Oh8ch may be right since the "Standards" are really an arbitrary set of measurements that may not reflect any person's true intelligence or ability to succeed. I also believe that the MoC case will take a lot of these student athletes out of an academic environment they do not belong or want to be in. The color of their skin will not matter as much as their pursuit of the green.

 

[Cincinnatibuck]

Today has been such a great day that I think I'll keep this going.

Sloopy you are right I did misunderstand you because to me the following two questions are not asking the same thing.

"Do you, as a black man, think that the best thing for your people is to constantly belabor these politically incorrect points in the media?"
"I asked you what your opinion was of black people waging these wars in the media." Since I told you I was black, it sure looks like you lumped me with other blacks when you stated your people. If you have another way of defining your people please let me know.

But, when you are a part of a group, you fall under an umbrella when a leader speaks for you.

I thought you just said you weren't lumping me in a group of certain people. The only group I belong to is the Citizens of the United States of America who at this time is under the leadership George Bush, an elected official. I'm clearly stating that Jesse Jackson, a self proclaimed leader, does not represent the entire black community or only the black community.

Here's another sentence of yours that I must of misunderstood.
"Race relations in this country will never move forward unless you & many other black people stop imagining that every white person hates you & is out to get you." Your reaction to my answer "Race relations is this country will never move forward until we all admit there still is a problem." was "I don't know of anyone on either side denying that there is a problem." So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying that blacks are the reason that race relations are still where they are today and that white people are all ready to sit at the table and talk about the issues.

Dihard- Not arguing your percentages, but I thought it was for the number of applicants, not the number you hire. In the end the government looks at the recruiting practices by companies to attract new hires. Plus, you have all the promote, pay, harrassment, etc. laws.

 

[Sloopy45]

Cincy: "I thought you just said you weren't lumping me in a group of certain people. The only group I belong to is the Citizens of the United States of America who at this time is under the leadership George Bush, an elected official."

We're all part of groups, many of them. Off the top of my head, I can name my nationality, religion, country, school, company, and many other groups that I am a part of. What I asked you is the same if you asked me, "Sloopy, as an Italian American, what do you think of your people making disparaging TV shows & movies portraying all Italians as mobsters?"

"I'm clearly stating that Jesse Jackson, a self proclaimed leader, does not represent the entire black community or only the black community."

You're right about this. But, since he claims to represent the black community, I wanted to get your take on what he does. That's all. I never implied that his opinions or actions do reflect the black community.

"So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying that blacks are the reason that race relations are still where they are today and that white people are all ready to sit at the table and talk about the issues."

I'm telling you, from the white perspective, that racism is a much bigger issue in the black community than the white community. I never said anything about white people being the voice of reason, or anything being either side's fault. My point is this: if you sat me in a room with 5 other random white guys (and you can throw Paul Hornung in that group if you like - jk), we would converse on 1,000 different topics before the issue of race relations ever comes up. If you sat 5 random black men in the same room, I don't think that would be the case. In fact, that topic might be in the Top 5, or Top 10 topics that would be discussed at some point.

In other words, racism in today's community is more of an issue (IMO) because blacks believe whites to be racist and hateful towards them, more than they actually are. From this, resentment, self-consciousness, hate, disdain, and other negative attitudes breed on both sides. This is not universal, and obviously doesn't apply to everything and everybody.

Di: I don't think Affirmative Action and quotas in the workforce is much of an issue today. I think it doesn't exist anymore.