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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1352619; said:
Ah, yes... the ever allusive "Middle 8" Agree with General a lot here. I have written I don't know how many tunes... not one of them has a solid middle 8.

So true. Lennon and McCartney ruined it for the rest of us. I've only recently gotten into songwriting, and that's always the hardest part. It's that feeling when you know there's a point where the song needs launch to another level, but you just can't put your finger on it. I'm thinking maybe the key is taking a section from a song that isn't going anywhere, and forcing it into a song that works, but needs a middle 8. That, or sell your soul to the devil. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall while John and Paul were tossing out ideas.
 
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generaladm;1352644; said:
So true. Lennon and McCartney ruined it for the rest of us. I've only recently gotten into songwriting, and that's always the hardest part. It's that feeling when you know there's a point where the song needs launch to another level, but you just can't put your finger on it. I'm thinking maybe the key is taking a section from a song that isn't going anywhere, and forcing it into a song that works, but needs a middle 8. That, or sell your soul to the devil. What I wouldn't give to have been a fly on the wall while John and Paul were tossing out ideas.

I've tried that too... A lot of the tunes I come up with are riff based.... Like I have a blues tune called Jelly-Roll my band and I wrote (I had the music, someone else wrote the words)... I really like the riff, and I like the words (It's about drinking in some sleazy bar trying to get some good ol JellyRoll :biggrin:) but... it's the same thing over and over and over... it's FUN to play... it's boring to listen to. Anyway.... I've tried to add other parts of other tunes to it, and for whatever reason, I can't make it work... either the change is too abrupt, or the chords don't work with the groove.. etc..

All that said, I know a lot more about theory now than when I wrote it, so I suppose I might be able to get a "theoretical" idea about what to do which could be beneficial in trying musical ideas with the instrument in hand (and, BB73, if you're reading this - my "instrument" is actually a guitar :p)
 
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Yeah, riff based songs are hard to take in another direction, without it sounding forced. The good thing is that if you have a good rhythm section, you can just ride that riff, and no one will mind. Really you can't stray from the I-IV-V loop, unless the change is just brilliant. There's always the early Zeppelin method: bad ass riff, spacey freak out section, different bad ass riff, Robert Plant orgasm, back to first bad ass riff. The hard thing about songwriting is there really aren't any rules, except don't write something that sounds like shit. You could listen to 100 songs, and there may be 100 different reasons that they work. Some are just masterful gems (Lennon/McCartney, early Bowie), some groovin' riffs (Zep, and the blues guys they ripped off), some lyrical content (Dylan), some lyrical message (Marley), some for the magnitude of sound or production (Pink Floyd, RATM), some are throwaway songs, but feature an great instrumental (Hendrix) or vocal (Aretha) performance, and on and on. Likewise, you could play the same song for 100 people, and likely a third will love it, a third will hate it, and a third could care less. The hard part is, once you've got a song to take shape, it's nearly impossible to listen to it with fresh ears.

My theory background comes from jazz (bass), so it's pretty comprehensive. Still, I'm constantly impressed when I'm learning a rock song, and there's a chord change that blows me away, because it goes against the logical conventions of tonality. Bowie's really good for that. There are some songs (not necessarily Bowie) that are seemingly a random collection of major chords, regardless of key, yet they sound great. I just think that's cool. It is interesting how most of the top rock songwriters are at least casually aware of the "Tin Pan Alley" style. Usually, if I'm trying to come up with ideas, I'll just strum my guitar and try to zone out, just playing random shit until something catches my ear. I'm not really good at translating what I hear in my head to what I can play (though I can usually pick out the root motion), so a lot of ideas just fade in to the ether.
 
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I can't get past the singer's voice. Again, it is way too nasally, not only when trying to hold notes this time though, most of the time.

I had a hard time listening to the instrumentation of the song because I couldn't get past the singing.

From what I did hear, it has potential, just needs a fair amount of work...
 
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BuckeyeRyn;1352971; said:
I can't get past the singer's voice. Again, it is way too nasally, not only when trying to hold notes this time though, most of the time.

I had a hard time listening to the instrumentation of the song because I couldn't get past the singing.

From what I did hear, it has potential, just needs a fair amount of work...

I agree. Although it's not really the singers fault. At the time I wrote these, almost a year ago, I had no idea how to work a melody. I don't think Robert Plant could do much with these melodies, they're pretty shitty.
 
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mercer_buckeye;1352957; said:
You asked for it.

YouTube - Complicated by The Trio

I, um, how should I put this? I hate this song. Please rip it to shreds.

Thanks for posting this. I take it you're kind of going out there on a limb posting a ballad.

My layman's perspective? What can I say... Ouch! I don't like it either. I couldn't even bring myself to listen all the way through that one... it was, umm, painful to listen to. Very raw (in a bad way) as opposed to the rawness (in a good way) of the first song.

If I was at the Distillery some Tuesday night years and years ago, and your group (standing in for the "Men of Leisure" :banger:) started playing this, I'd go outside for a break.

I found myself listening to "Holes" over and over again. This one... not so much. Sorry Mercer. If this track was on the same CD as "Holes", I'm not sure I'd buy the thing.

The vocalist's impression of Lowell George is much much better than his rendition of Eddie Vedder.

Were the guitar and vocal tracks layed down seperately? Something seems out of sorts between the two, but I can't tell for sure. It's something more than the melody.

Oh... try gaining down on the chorus pedal a little bit on the guitar. Just for kicks.

Anyway... thanks for posting this. It's definitely a different animal than "Holes".
 
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generaladm;1352644; said:
It's that feeling when you know there's a point where the song needs launch to another level, but you just can't put your finger on it. I'm thinking maybe the key is taking a section from a song that isn't going anywhere, and forcing it into a song that works, but needs a middle 8. That, or sell your soul to the devil.

Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1352652; said:
Anyway.... I've tried to add other parts of other tunes to it, and for whatever reason, I can't make it work... either the change is too abrupt, or the chords don't work with the groove.. etc..

Gentleman:

If I may be so bold, I suggest more cowbell.

christopher_walken.jpg
 
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