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DEBuckeye said:
Spanish PM Jose Luis Zapatero

Mr Zapatero recalled the attacks in Madrid in March 2004
Spain has suffered the scourge of terrorism for decades and on 11 March last year it was the victim of the most horrific attack recorded until then in Europe.

For that reason, we, the Spanish people, well understand the suffering that today the British people are undergoing.

We share their pain intensely, just as they and so many other peoples of the world did with us on other occasions.

What he MEANT to say was... "Give whatever they want!! It worked here, and it can work for you, too!"


I find it interesting that all of these foreign govt. officials are chiming in today with support for the ongoing war against terrorism. Many of the same govt.'s who bitch about what the US is doing about it. These officials need to put their money where their mouth is and start fighting.
Quite right -- lip-service doesn't cut it when you are hunting killers.
DEBuckeye said:
And one quick thought about the ACLU- they can fucking blow me. If there is ever a time when a little profiling is needed, it's now. If you look or act like a terrorist, you should be watched more closely until it's determined that you're not a threat. If that means that people from the middle east get searched more often at the airport, then so be it. If you don't like it, then don't fly.
Not disputing your psoition on the ACLU trying to put a net around our security forces, but, boy -- I wish it were that easy as just loosening up on profiling. Profiling is pretty much de riguer in the UK, nothing to stop the bobbies from using an elastic "reasonable grounds for suspicion" to haul someone in for a quick once over. Basically, you look like a possible member of al-Qaeda (read - dusky, arab appearance) and you must assume that you are under surveillance.

Despite which greater latitude for UK security personnel, todays bombings still happened. This probably point up the difficulty in applying profiling (when the police have complete freedom to do so, as in the UK) when the city in which your operate is strongly multi-cultural. Like London, or New York, or Chicago.

On a side-note, I have heard an unconfirmed report that at least one unexploded device may have been recovered. I hope that is true, and the odd sequence of bombings lends some credence to this. Three bombs in 30 minute span on the tubes, then a half hour gap. Then only one attack on a bus. Did the terrorists leave satchel bombs on separate buses, one of which did not work? Special Branch would then be digging deep into its innards to learn all they might about the origins of the parts used in its construction.
 
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It's hard to develop an opinion that is politically correct without expressing severe anger and hate and racially profiling all that fit the description of a terrorist. I do believe that will change the people of London's opinion upon all "middle eastern" people and the way that they are treated.

I hope that all of Europe will stand up and help in the fight against terrorism
 
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Just a note to westend and Jwonslow, that broad brush that you are bitching about everyone in this thread using is the same one you are using on everyone in this thread. Pot.Kettle.Black

Anger is a very real emotion, most everyones first reaction to something like this is to seek revenge. It will blow over, fucking chill and stop waving that high and mighty liberal flag. You are no better than anyone else here.
 
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Only one problem with going after 'them'. Who are 'they'?

I know folks are purposefully overracting with the 'towelled head' comments, but terrorism has always been part of the world culture and always will be. Julius Caser and Abraham Lincoln were the victims of terrorists. Pope Urban II was a terrorist. Robespierre was a terrorist. The Boston Tea party was a terrorist act.

What is changing are the means by which terrorism is carried out - and the nature of its targets.

The war against terrorism involves effectively attacking both the groups that sponsor it and the political issues that drive it. Both of these efforts are complex, expensive, and long term. Efforts to counter terrorism bring with them compromises to freedom and civil rights.

The one good thing that may occur from today is a renewal of the world focus on the problem that followed 9-11 - a focus that was somehow squandered once before.

If every member of Al Qaida dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end.
If every Muslim dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end (which is not to suggest any significant number of Muslims are terrorists).

The number of people who died in London today are only a fraction of the number of people who die in Africa daily from causes that Great Britain and the US could address financially. But Africans are just too damn nice. They haven't the knowledge or the will to apply terrorist tactics. Give them time.

And behind them someone else.

The John Wayne cavalrly charge and all the self-righteous indignation in the world are not part of the solution.
 
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Another problem of today is the nature of the terrorists and their motivation. Many of the examples cited by Oh8ch, and throughout history, were carried out for a variety of reasons: land, treasure, power, money, anger, revenge, insurrection...but these goals all commonly were for worldly gain. That is, the acts were perpetrated by those who wished to advance their cause (whatever it was) here on earth. The story has changed, now that the twisting of religion has resulted in terrorists who have a complete disregard for what happens here...they are only interested in "rewards" in the afterlife. That's not to say that religion hasn't been used to commit terrorist acts and murder before...but then, it was usually to advance the religion's power, territory, or rule. Now, the goal seems to be kill themselves...and take everyone with them, and let God sort it out. This makes this situation all the more frightening, not to mention dangerous. It is true that "they" will always be there in some capacity, but these particular "theys" are a horrible danger to everyone until they are dealt with. This, I fear, can be controlled...but will never go away either.
 
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Oh8ch said:
Only one problem with going after 'them'. Who are 'they'?

I know folks are purposefully overracting with the 'towelled head' comments, but terrorism has always been part of the world culture and always will be. Julius Caser and Abraham Lincoln were the victims of terrorists. Pope Urban II was a terrorist. Robespierre was a terrorist. The Boston Tea party was a terrorist act.

What is changing are the means by which terrorism is carried out - and the nature of its targets.

The war against terrorism involves effectively attacking both the groups that sponsor it and the political issues that drive it. Both of these efforts are complex, expensive, and long term. Efforts to counter terrorism bring with them compromises to freedom and civil rights.

The one good thing that may occur from today is a renewal of the world focus on the problem that followed 9-11 - a focus that was somehow squandered once before.

If every member of Al Qaida dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end.
If every Muslim dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end (which is not to suggest any significant number of Muslims are terrorists).

The number of people who died in London today are only a fraction of the number of people who die in Africa daily from causes that Great Britain and the US could address financially. But Africans are just too damn nice. They haven't the knowledge or the will to apply terrorist tactics. Give them time.

And behind them someone else.

The John Wayne cavalrly charge and all the self-righteous indignation in the world are not part of the solution.
Oh8ch, the facts in todays society point to 1 profile of the Al Quada "potential" terrorist. These are not Koreans, African Americans, Italians (close), Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc blowing up "infidels" in the name of their God. If I'm sitting on an airplane next to a sweating, smelly Chinese man I'm annoyed...but if dude fits the profile of "all" of those that decided to fly airplanes into buildings I'm not getting any shut eye on this flight. Right or wrong I'm leary of Arab looking dudes because they are the ones blowing up busses/trains/airplanes in the name of their God.

I'm Italian, I've got no problem being inconvenienced because I might fit the profile of the known terrorist group....I prefer common sense to checking the 80 year old catholic nun in the name of political correctness.
 
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Oh8ch said:
If every member of Al Qaida dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end.
If every Muslim dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end (which is not to suggest any significant number of Muslims are terrorists).
QUOTE]

No, but it would probably reduce terrorism in the world by about 98%. The IRA, the ETA, the redneck militias and the Tamil tigers have been pretty darn quiet since 9/11.
As for Africa-maybe the Africans are simply people with a joy for life who don't have the hate filled, nihilistic worldview of Al-Qaida and Co, poverty or not.
 
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jwinslow said:
This thread is embarrassing. I've always been for putting more effort and funding into trackign down bin laden and seizing terrorist strongholds...

But blowing up anyone who wears a turban, or thinking profiling arabs is ok is disgusting people. Why don't we just go back to putting them in camps like we did with the japanese in wwii?

There's a huge, HUGE, difference in "profiling" an isolated segment of society and forcibly imprisoning them. I have absolutely no problem with profiling anyone, by race, religion, nationality, etc. Our national security far outweighs the feelings and opinions of others.



Oh8ch said:
I know folks are purposefully overracting with the 'towelled head' comments, but terrorism has always been part of the world culture and always will be. Julius Caser and Abraham Lincoln were the victims of terrorists. Pope Urban II was a terrorist. Robespierre was a terrorist. The Boston Tea party was a terrorist act.

Caesar and Lincoln were victims of assassins, not terrorists...two totally different entities. And the Tea Party was nothing resembling a terrorist act...there were no attacks on people, and the property that was "attacked" was their own tea being thrown overboard. Terrorist acts are purposely committed acts specifically designed to create terror in not only the victims but also a larger segment of the population.
 
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Oh8ch said:
If every member of Al Qaida dropped dead tomorrow terrorism would not end.
Yeah, but it would be a damned good start....


Oh8ch said:
The number of people who died in London today are only a fraction of the number of people who die in Africa daily from causes that Great Britain and the US could address financially. But Africans are just too damn nice. They haven't the knowledge or the will to apply terrorist tactics. Give them time.
Thanks for pointing out the fact that terrorism is in fact a form of extortion. And, when do extortionists stop extorting....? Try never. Appeasement doesn't work. And neither does throwing money at problems....
 
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It is a sad day for London specifically and the world generally.

There have been some good points and emotional pleas made in this thread.

For me the issue that matters the most is that these attacks will continue until the political leaders, the religious leaders and the people of the muslim community condemn them for the acts of murder they are. The silience speaks louder than anything else. Lip service will not be enough. Without support I would suspect the people that committed these actions would be less successful and easier to capture. With each success they move closer to a frightening possibly of doing something that could destroy many more lives than 9-11.

America watched as Muslims cheered the news of 9-11. We also watched as the muslim community in Detroit, Americas largest muslim community, cheered at the news of Saddam's fall. Now which of those two groups do you think will suffer the most?

The amazing thing to me is the anyone would think that these acts of murder will do anything but steel the resolve of the rest of the world against them. Can anyone really tell me what they want? For the infidels to leave the holy land?

I can cut and paste an OPED letter from the WSJ that shows that under Bush aid to Africa has tripled compared to the the Clinton years. Cultural icons such as Bono and Bob Geldoff has even agreed the what the US has done there has been much improved.


Guns and butter, guns and butter.
 
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bucknola said:
It is a sad day for London specifically and the world generally...

Can anyone really tell me what they want? For the infidels to leave the holy land?
The terrible, cowardly attack in London will make every American a bit more appreciative of the efforts of our armed forces and security forces.

This tragedy highlights that this isn't just an anti-American thing. It also isn't just about countries in which Islam is the predominate religion. The resentment stretches into Asia, Africa, and South America.

Why are nations outside the industrialised West to become increasingly resentful and bitter about the West? Personally, living outside the USA, I find myself often defending America and Americans. And I can tell you that it has a lot to do about Western perceptions of so-called developing countries.

Here's a good link (http://www.un.org/ffd/statements/wtoE.htm) to a speech by the director of the World Trade Organization. He refers to a Tinbergen Institute study that showed that if Western nations opened their borders to trade to the same extent as they require developing countries to open their borders as a condition of aid agreements, then the value of the trade in favor of developing countries would be six times the amount of aid given to the developing world. Six times.

I avoid conversations about politics religiously. But as a business school professor, I hear lots of comments in the classroom. People complain that it is ironic that the West is so eager to talk about free trade and globalized brands, but then hampers or restricts the poorest continent to quotas that top out at less than 10% of the clothing market in the USA or refuses to accept its grain into France.

As a case in point about perceived unfairness, the French blocked South Africa's EU trade agreement because South African wines used terms like champagne that the French claim refer only to products produced in certain regions of their country. They even made motions to block South African wines saying things like, "Brand X Bubbly, compare to champagne". On the other hand, an American firm has patented the name "rooibos", which refers to a plant that grows only on Table Mountain and which is used to make tea (i.e., rooibos tea) and as an ingredient of cosmetics. The American firm insists on royalties for imports into America! This would be like me patenting the name buckeye and then charging Buckeye Planet to use the name!

So, you can perhaps understand a bit better why people resent the constant harping about opening markets to free trade when Western countries do anything but open theirs or cast aspersions about intellectual property. They think that its ironic that Americans can ignore allegations of election fraud at home while pointing out problems in every other country. They resent the way their countries are presented in American movies as corrupt and devoid of values, when worldwide surveys outside the USA point to American business people as the most corrupt on the planet.

They also resent what they feel is a perceived superiority that Westerners display toward their country. Ever heard of organ transplants, plastic surgery, or had a CAT scan? Did you think of these as symbols of innovative American health care or more correctly as South African innovations. When Banc One and First Chicago merged, they got their databases merged in surprisingly rapid time. Would you have thought that a three man company from Johannesburg did the job? Ever see a TV advert on a bank ATM? Another Johannesburg company developed that technology and biometrics for ATMs also were developed here. Many of the hollywood movies you think are shot in the USA are now shot here. Oh yeah, and if you have heard about RFID, the next big innovation in retailing, then realize that about 70% of the patents for RFID were developed here. I saw the first RFID checkout demonstration in Pretoria in 1988.

In many cases, the perceptions that I hear about Western countries are every bit as distorted and inaccurate as the perceptions of developing countries that I hear about in America.

Americans and other people in the world feel righteously indignant about the attack on the World Trade Center that killed some 3000 people. You guys know that my Dad went into a coma just fifteen minutes before the tragedy and died the next morning. I was a sargeant in This Man's Army and my son is serving there today. Having fought my way into America to bury my Dad, I have every reason to harbor extreme resentment. But, without conceding one inch of my desire to see these cowardly criminals brought to justice, my resentment is balanced by a more balanced understanding of the world.

People in the developing world wonder why people in the West don't feel the same sense of righteous indignation when infant and maternal mortality, malaria, and HIV/AIDS kill millons every year. They don't understand how developing nations problems can be so easily blamed on banana republic dictators, when they feel that the problems can be traced to unfair trade and other problems for which the West shares responsibility.

They can't understand how people can feel so disconnected from the world's poor as to resent giving less than $0.75 of every $100.00 to the world's poor while at the same time spending more money on designer dog food, bobble head dolls, other nonessentials while allegedly contributing more to greenhouse gas emissions and pollution than any other country in the world.

I am NOT subscribing to or endorsing these views but simply answering Bucknola's question.

In my opinion, many of the views I hear are as simplistic as the competing generalities the speakers openly reject. It's like when person after person in the UK told me how the Brits won WWII, when I had heard a very different story from my father who was stationed there. But there is truth, especially as regards freedom in world trade, in some of the statements I hear. And I fear that if perceptions of America don't change, our nation's economy will be greatly threatened. The West should not ignore the impact of the unstoppable rise of the big emerging markets and the effects this will have on world trade and intellectual property.

What I find ironic is that few people anywhere in the world will argue about the core principles of the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. South Africa, as you probably know, drew substantially on these in shaping the new South African Constitution. I take comfort in that and in hoping that one day perceptions will change substantially.

God bless the United States of America!
 
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Oh8ch said:
The number of people who died in London today are only a fraction of the number of people who die in Africa daily from causes that Great Britain and the US could address financially. But Africans are just too damn nice. They haven't the knowledge or the will to apply terrorist tactics. Give them time.
Not to go completely off topic, but when the fuck did we and the UK become the saviors of any freaking poor country? we have large enough issues in our own countries to have to ensure that other impoverished countries get aid...

The US sent [size=-1] $3.399 BILLION to africa ([/size][size=-1]www.brookings.edu/views/articles/rice/20050627.htm) in 2004. Isn't that enough???? I am sure we could of helped out a lot of needy or homeless US CITIZENS, but we sent aid there.

Anyways, back to the normally scheduled program...

God be with all that lost thier lives, and thier families, in this disgusting act of cowardness.
[/size]
 
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There's a huge, HUGE, difference in "profiling" an isolated segment of society and forcibly imprisoning them. I have absolutely no problem with profiling anyone, by race, religion, nationality, etc. Our national security far outweighs the feelings and opinions of others.
I agree there's a difference, however many in america are not mature or respectful enough to differentiate between the two. I can't count the number of times I've been embarrassed to learn of times when my pakistani or indian friends have been the recepient of hateful words as a result of 9-11... merely because much of this nation is too stupid to identify the difference between the two... let alone realize the racist nature of such thoughts.

What none of those people realize is that distrusting Arabs in everyday life is as intelligent as not using German-americans to fight WWII b/c they might be traitors.

Everyone is still sensitive from 9-11 and should be... however when that fear is combined with (possibly justified) profiling at security checkpoints... it results in the unintended cultivation of racism.

I'm not saying the gov't should necessarily alter their actions to avoid this, nor do I know if they could prevent it.

But it sickens me when supposedly enlightened, well-educated americans from the midwest treat arabians/indians as the enemy.
 
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Jwinslow-guess what-your perfetcly innocent Pakistani/Indian friends-guess what-I had a perfectly normal conversation w/ an Indian friend at the bar last night, and it was very cool-London did not approach the converdation once-we talked about wrestling and women. That said, whomever awarded Oh8ch a great great post award needs to severely reassess their geo-political understanding. i hope you revoke the Buckeye award, instead of being a politically correct byatch
 
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DCBuckFan said:
The US sent [size=-1]$3.399 BILLION to africa ([/size][size=-1]www.brookings.edu/views/articles/rice/20050627.htm) in 2004. Isn't that enough???? I am sure we could of helped out a lot of needy or homeless US CITIZENS, but we sent aid there.[/size]
Yes, it's a lot of money but read the Tinbergen Institute report. Compiled by leading academic researchers in the West, it shows that the USA may have benefitted nearly $20 billion in the same period by not opening access to the American market to the same extent that it required those aid recipients to open theirs.

Perhaps the greatest challenge that we have as Americans is that we don't see any meaningful world news on television, except when tragedies such as London occur. Aunt Fannies cat in the tree gets more attention than important international news items. Even CNN broadcasts a completely different service in the USA than overseas, dropping most of the content. The lack of information makes it hard for us to understand the world or make informed decisions about it.

Here's a current example of what upsets developing countries.

The European Community enticed Mauritius, a very small country, into the ACP sugar supply agreement. It's a multi-year agreement that encouraged the participants to develop their cane sugar industries so that Europe could get its hands on good quality sugar for human consumption and industrial purposes.

Every supplier country in the ACP is a developing country and the agreement assigns each a share of the European market and sets the price for sugar. Everything has gone well for years and the Mauritian economy has become virtually reliant on sugar sales to Europe.

Now, without any real negotiation, the European community is breaking the agreement. It has decided that sugar prices will decline by something like 25% this year and 40% over the next three years and that it will cut its orders further in the future. The European Community is breaking its agreements with the ACP countries and refuses to discuss its breach, despite that fact that the WTO has found that it is breaking its agreements under the Uruguay Round.

Mauritius is a country of about a 1.5 million people, there are 60,000 small growers who are affected by the decision.

The European Community is making big noise about how they plan to put about $40 million dollars of aid on the table to smooth the blow to all of the affected countries. What they don't say is that, by their own estimates, the blow will be nearly $500 million to these economies. So, European citizens pat themselve on the backs, or feel ripped off by aid donations to another poor country because they don't see all the facts of the matter.

Western governments announce plans for aid with great fanfare, designed for maximum publicity back home. But the Mauritians know that what is announced and what gets provided are very different things. Moreover, when those aid packages get analyzed after delivery, recipient countries find that a lot of the aid comes in the form of over-priced items that are made by companies from the donor country and which could have been made locally much cheaper.

Consider how often we hear about the risks firms take when doing business in Africa. Well, if American firms in Africa have been taking out returns in excess of 25% for more than fifty years and earning less than half that at home (as Bill Clinton observed when here), is risk really relevant after all this time? If it is, then which market is really the most risky given the paltry returns at home?

It's all about perceptions. Perceptions are reality. We might see the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as charitable souls for their many donations of Microsoft Office TM to South African schools. Others might argue that the donations are Microsoft's clever attempt to rip off the American taxpayer by claiming tax rebates for charitable contributions that are really designed to slow the adoption of www.openoffice.org, a compatible freeware product that does just about everything the Microsoft product does, but can be downloaded completely free of charge.

Mauritius is responding to the European challenge creatively. The entire island goes wi-max for free internet connectivity with a month or so. They are rapidly entering cyberbusiness and have built a large cyberbusiness complex. They're making the entire island a free trade zone. But, it sure has turned their country upside down to have the Europeans repudiate their legal obligations under the agreement.

What this illustrates to me is that the arguments about aid are too simplistic. There's just a lot more to it.
 
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