• Follow us on Twitter @buckeyeplanet and @bp_recruiting, like us on Facebook! Enjoy a post or article, recommend it to others! BP is only as strong as its community, and we only promote by word of mouth, so share away!
  • Consider registering! Fewer and higher quality ads, no emails you don't want, access to all the forums, download game torrents, private messages, polls, Sportsbook, etc. Even if you just want to lurk, there are a lot of good reasons to register!

Lets see what a Playoff could actually look like

Buckeyeskickbuttocks

Z --> Z^2 + c
Staff member
To have a playoff, or stick with the BCS?

It is quite fashionable these days to regard the BCS as, at best, the simple manufacturing of a contest to award some team a mythical championship based primarily on the public perception(s) of those teams in the mix. At worst, the BCS represents a cash grab by the "power conferences" (ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big XII, Pac 10, SEC) who have the tradition (and fan base) to warrant inclusion into BCS bowl games which they might not otherwise "deserve." A good example, though not in a BCS conference per se, is Notre Dame - which regularly plays in bowl games it might not truly "deserve" to be in simply for the fact that whichever bowl grabs them can be assured of filling the seats in the stadium. While this discussion recognizes that there are millions of dollars at issue here (and, more importantly, no doubt actually driving the decision of whether to go to a playoff or not), the working assumption for our purposes here is that whatever system is in place, people will make plenty of money. That is to say, the money issue is really more about who gets it and not how much of it is available. This piece doesn't care who gets the money. Some care will be taken to avoid the money issue in the posts below, though - as you'll see - there are times when the issue will be mentioned.

A brief history of the BCS might be appropriate here, but for the sake of brevity, it will not be outlined fully. For our purposes here keep in mind the following assumption: The BCS was created as a means to remove - or at least to put a check on - voter bias as well as to give the fans a game matching the teams perceived to be the top 2 in the nation a chance to settle it on the field. On some level, this is believed to take some of the "mythical" out of the "Mythical National Champion" label, but in practice has revealed itself to be as arbitrary as the former system of simply taking a poll. In other words, it is a rare season where only 2 teams identify themselves as a clear cut above the rest - 2002 being a true example of only 2 teams having an "honest claim" (and even then, many people think 2 loss USC was probably the best team). In a more common year, as many as 4 or 5 teams can argue their case as to why they "deserve" to be playing for all the marbles. While I maintain the BCS does precisely what it's designed to do - differentiate between otherwise like teams - I will not belabor the point in the following.

Instead, I will outline three separate ideas for a playoff so that we can see what Playoff proponents are really clamoring for. The first analysis in each post below will be based on the following principal: "Fairness" Proponents of the playoff system, or "anti-BCS-ers," often toss around the idea of fairness. This concept is two fold. 1 - fairness of competition. The power conferences have a stranglehold on the BCS games, and some people believe that the mid-major conferences should be considered more. Using 2008 as an example, Utah played in a conference, the MWC, which compares favorably to several so called "power" conferences and thus, Utah's running the table in the MWC should not be discounted. 2 - The unavoidable financial consideration. As above, I won't get in to these factors too much, but will mention that the "fairness" argument contemplates mid majors not just getting a piece of the BCS pie, but a piece of the BCS pie that goes along with a championship. That said, to be principled, we can't selectively decide the MWC gets a bite at the pie, but the Sun Belt does not. No. To rest on the principal of fairness, we must include ALL conference champions. Thus, as outlined below, the first analysis will contemplate what a playoff would have looked like using ONLY conference champions. As will, I think, be demonstrated, inviting conference champions, and conference champions alone, does little to generate "better" match-ups during the playoffs than the current bowl structure already generates. Such a formulation removes concepts of margin of victory and strength of schedule from consideration entirely. While some feel this is appropriate (and for reason), I believe it will be demonstrated below does not truly give college fans what they "want" in the long term.

Second on each post will be a 6+2 system. While proponents of the playoff system seem convinced it is the better way to determine a champion, few seem to be able to articulate exactly who should be invited. That said, one solution I've heard several times considers taking the champion of each power conference and then the remaining two at large teams available and regardless of conference affiliation. It is likewise unclear under what formula those two at large teams would be selected from. For our purposes here, we will keep the BCS formulation as a "final ranking" of sorts for said determination. The important point here, I think, is recognition that we are now moving away from principled reason for change, and instead simply masking the arbitrary nature of the BCS in a bigger pool of contestants. Likewise, as will be demonstrated below, in most years little is done to accommodate the mid-majors and their "fairness" concerns (both in terms of pure football skill and financial). While a different selection process could be conceived, if you hear someone argue 6+2 with the BCS rankings determining the at large bids, you should be aware you're not really basing your playoffs on a different principle and instead simply asking for "fairness" over some other metric - perceived skill on the field comparative to the rest of the nation. While the BCS limits this selection process to 2, the 6+2 system rests on the same flaws and gives us 8.

Finally, moving completely away from the principal of taking conference champions, we shall consider a playoff of the top 8 BCS teams in each season. Some proponents of this idea would take 4, others as many as 16. I settled on 8 because it is between those tallies and I believe will adequately demonstrate - illustratively - the benefits and problems of either a 4 or 16 team field. As mentioned, the "fairness" issue here is completely removed from conference affiliation, and instead speaks of fairness on a level of who is perceived as the top 8 in the nation. As a process, it suffers the exact same problems as the current BCS (ie being dependent in part on human bias, and computer programming issues), though it invites more teams to the party. As will be seen below, such a system does tend to generate more "great games" than does the current bowl system (at least at a glance), but also amounts to little more than the same money grab already present while resting on the same flaws as the current system. In short, while potentially more exciting over a number of games, there is little principle involved save for the assumption that humans and computers maybe can't select the top 2, but can figure out the top 8 adequately enough.

There will be some commentary in each post regarding the information, and I think it'll become clear (if it's not already) that there is little desire for a principled playoff (Conference champions) and instead people simply want to have better post season games to watch. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem I have is people going beyond the assertion by suggesting that it's more "fair" or more "principled" or any of that. A 6+2 and an 8 team playoff is as arbitrary as the current BCS, masking the particular failings under a larger field, while at the same time offering the potential for a team that probably doesn't truly deserve consideration for the title, a shot at that title. That is to suggest that while a playoff does represent a system of determination of a champion, there are no benefits in that system which are remarkably different than the current system. While we would accept a playoff champion as the national champion, the truth is, the selection settles little and is just as "mythical" in reality. A playoff makes little effort to reward the best team, choosing the best team on a particular day against a particular opponent. It's as random as anything else. That is easily illustrated with the following example: Suppose #1 USC plays #4 Texas and wins 17-15 in an epic battle. #3 Utah plays #2 Alabama and wins 28-10. Can't Texas argue it would have beat Utah, and only lost as a consequence of the seeding? Of course they could. A playoff settles nothing. It's merely a recognized system of determination. It's legitimate. But, its not the only way to determine a champion and it is not fail safe.

Methodology

In setteling on what numbers to use I had to make some choices. It is recognized that there are other ways in which to evaluate the information and therefore the conclusions will be tainted by these choices. That said, we should agree that we need some manner to evaluate the data and so here are the reasons the information considered was choosen, and for what ends those means decided upon.

Conference champions - In the event Co-Champions from a conference, the team selected for our purposes will be by considering the team from that conference who went to the BCS bowl (ie Purdue in 2000 from the Big Ten, despite being Co-Champs with Michigan and Northwestern). If there was a Co-Championship in a conference which does not receive an auto-bid to a BCS game, the team selected was selected based on the following principle, in order: Overall Record, Higher BCS rank, stronger schedule, final AP rank. As before, it is recognized that this may not be the case in "reality" all the time, but for our purposes here, in the interest of full disclosure, was the manner of selection.

At Large Selections - At large selections were made by taking the highest BCS rating remaining in the pool of teams once conference champions had been removed (in the 6+2 system) or simply taking the top 8, as the BCS does not generate (or has not generated) ties.

Strength of Schedule - All SOS numbers are dervied from Sagarin's formulation. I choose this for two reasons. First, the datat was readily available and accessible. Second, while there are other formulations, the Sagarin SOS ratings consider a multitude of factors which I feel are germane for consideration. It is admitted that there are other means to determine SOS. To the extent, however, that any one process is chosen, the data is internally consistent by use of the same formula throughout each year. That said, it must also be noted, the SOS rankings below are post bowl rankings, which is perhaps inappropriate with respect to selection for our hypothetical playoffs. It is further noted, that in the year 2000, and only for this year, the SOS rankings are pre-bowl and I could not find post bowl rankings.
Team Records - It must be noted, a team's record is post bowl. The reason for selecting post bowl record was merely for the ease of doing so, as it was contained on the same page(s) as the Sagarin data and I don't have unlimited time for this project. Pre-bowl records are probably more appropriate, but for our purposes here, I think, not a critical consideration.
Final AP - All AP rankings listed below are from the final AP poll for that season. It is recognized that the AP poll suffers several failings and is only useful for limited purposes. The intention herein is not to use the rating as an authority on a team's actual ability, but instead simply a guide as to the general "feeling" of how a team was regarded nationally. Thus, while reasonable minds may disagree with Ohio State ranking 4 in 2003, begind #3 Oklahoma, the data is not intended to establish OU was acutally better, but that they were perceived as such by one group of humans.

Final Sagarin Ratings - Like the selection of the AP poll, the Sagarin ratings were used for the limited purpose of illustrating what the computers "thought" of a team. There are several computer polls which could have been utilized for this purpose, some perhaps better and some perhaps worse. Again, the use of the Sagarin rating was in part owing to ease of finding the information (as it came on the same page as the SOS data). It is recognized that the poll suffers it's own failings - most notably demonstrated in 2002 where Sagarin listed USC as number 1, Miami of Florida 2, and Ohio State 3, despite the fact that Ohio State was 13-0 (USC was 11-2) and had beaten Miami on the field. That said, use of the poll is - again - not intended to illustrate any "truth of the matter" but to instead capture on some level the computer poll results.

Brackets - The number of conferences to be considered has changed since 1998. As such, the Conference Champions Alone formulation is inconsistent with respect to size - but consistent with regard to the number of conferences at issue in a particular season. The Sun Belt conference did not exist until 2001, for example. Likewise, the MWC did not come in to being until 1999 and the "Big West" conference ended play in 2000. First round byes were given to the teams with the highest BCS ranks to manufacture brackets when necessary. When constructing brackets, care was taken to give seeds 1 and 2 "easier" roads to the title (ie the NCAA tournament pairing 1 v. 16, 2 v. 15 and so on.) Thus, for example, in a 10 game bracket, 9 plays 10 with the winner playing 1, while 7 plays 8 with the winner playing 2. 4 plays 6 winner to face winner of 1 v. 10/9 game, 3 plays 5 with winner playing winner of 2 v. 7/8 game.
Seeding - The same principle in determining conference champions was used when determining seeding:Higher BCS rank, Overall Record, stronger schedule, final AP rank.
Errors - I have been careful to limit any errors in transcribing the information, but leave room for the occasional oversight. If you find an error, please report it to me and I will attempt to insert the correct data. Errors, however, should not be seen as having the hidden purpose of advancing my personal belief that a Playoff settles nothing.

Why not a Plus One? - I have not considered the Plus One format because I think it patently absurd. I have no clue why we would be snowed in to thinking that after a 12 game season, we don't have enough information to pick Title Game contestants, but after bowl season, suddenly we have enough information to select the truly "worthy" contestants. The very idea of a Plus One isn't itself an end, but a means to making people (read, college Presidents and ADs) comfortable with a structure that sort of resembles a playoff. I could be wrong in that conclusion, but I can see no other purpose for it.

With that said, on to the data, and some commentary which I hope develops some of the themes outlined above:

** I have decided to make each year it's own separate thread. First, readers could be "turned off" of reading much of the information if presented in a single thread due to the sheer girth of information to be presented. Second, it occurs to me that each year (and this methodology) may merit discussion and critique and it seems to make more sense to dedicate that discussion to it's individual sub-topic rather than a single thread mish-mash.


Link to Methodology

Link to 1998 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 1999 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2000 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2001 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2002 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2003 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2004 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2005 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2006 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2007 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2008 Playoff Hypotheticals

Link to Conclusions

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1383176; said:
To have a playoff, or stick with the BCS?

It is quite fashionable these days to regard the BCS as, at best, the simple manufacturing of a contest to award some team a mythical championship based primarily on the public perception(s) of those teams in the mix. At worst, the BCS represents a cash grab by the "power conferences" (ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big XII, Pac 10, SEC) who have the tradition (and fan base) to warrant inclusion into BCS bowl games which they might not otherwise "deserve." A good example, though not in a BCS conference per se, is Notre Dame - which regularly plays in bowl games it might not truly "deserve" to be in simply for the fact that whichever bowl grabs them can be assured of filling the seats in the stadium. While this discussion recognizes that there are millions of dollars at issue here (and, more importantly, no doubt actually driving the decision of whether to go to a playoff or not), the working assumption for our purposes here is that whatever system is in place, people will make plenty of money. That is to say, the money issue is really more about who gets it and not how much of it is available. This piece doesn't care who gets the money. Some care will be taken to avoid the money issue in the posts below, though - as you'll see - there are times when the issue will be mentioned.

A brief history of the BCS might be appropriate here, but for the sake of brevity, it will not be outlined fully. For our purposes here keep in mind the following assumption: The BCS was created as a means to remove - or at least to put a check on - voter bias as well as to give the fans a game matching the teams perceived to be the top 2 in the nation a chance to settle it on the field. On some level, this is believed to take some of the "mythical" out of the "Mythical National Champion" label, but in practice has revealed itself to be as arbitrary as the former system of simply taking a poll. In other words, it is a rare season where only 2 teams identify themselves as a clear cut above the rest - 2002 being a true example of only 2 teams having an "honest claim" (and even then, many people think 2 loss USC was probably the best team). In a more common year, as many as 4 or 5 teams can argue their case as to why they "deserve" to be playing for all the marbles. While I maintain the BCS does precisely what it's designed to do - differentiate between otherwise like teams - I will not belabor the point in the following.

Instead, I will outline three separate ideas for a playoff so that we can see what Playoff proponents are really clamoring for. The first analysis in each post below will be based on the following principal: "Fairness" Proponents of the playoff system, or "anti-BCS-ers," often toss around the idea of fairness. This concept is two fold. 1 - fairness of competition. The power conferences have a stranglehold on the BCS games, and some people believe that the mid-major conferences should be considered more. Using 2008 as an example, Utah played in a conference, the MWC, which compares favorably to several so called "power" conferences and thus, Utah's running the table in the MWC should not be discounted. 2 - The unavoidable financial consideration. As above, I won't get in to these factors too much, but will mention that the "fairness" argument contemplates mid majors not just getting a piece of the BCS pie, but a piece of the BCS pie that goes along with a championship. That said, to be principled, we can't selectively decide the MWC gets a bite at the pie, but the Sun Belt does not. No. To rest on the principal of fairness, we must include ALL conference champions. Thus, as outlined below, the first analysis will contemplate what a playoff would have looked like using ONLY conference champions. As will, I think, be demonstrated, inviting conference champions, and conference champions alone, does little to generate "better" match-ups during the playoffs than the current bowl structure already generates. Such a formulation removes concepts of margin of victory and strength of schedule from consideration entirely. While some feel this is appropriate (and for reason), I believe it will be demonstrated below does not truly give college fans what they "want" in the long term.

Second on each post will be a 6+2 system. While proponents of the playoff system seem convinced it is the better way to determine a champion, few seem to be able to articulate exactly who should be invited. That said, one solution I've heard several times considers taking the champion of each power conference and then the remaining two at large teams available and regardless of conference affiliation. It is likewise unclear under what formula those two at large teams would be selected from. For our purposes here, we will keep the BCS formulation as a "final ranking" of sorts for said determination. The important point here, I think, is recognition that we are now moving away from principled reason for change, and instead simply masking the arbitrary nature of the BCS in a bigger pool of contestants. Likewise, as will be demonstrated below, in most years little is done to accommodate the mid-majors and their "fairness" concerns (both in terms of pure football skill and financial). While a different selection process could be conceived, if you hear someone argue 6+2 with the BCS rankings determining the at large bids, you should be aware you're not really basing your playoffs on a different principle and instead simply asking for "fairness" over some other metric - perceived skill on the field comparative to the rest of the nation. While the BCS limits this selection process to 2, the 6+2 system rests on the same flaws and gives us 8.

Finally, moving completely away from the principal of taking conference champions, we shall consider a playoff of the top 8 BCS teams in each season. Some proponents of this idea would take 4, others as many as 16. I settled on 8 because it is between those tallies and I believe will adequately demonstrate - illustratively - the benefits and problems of either a 4 or 16 team field. As mentioned, the "fairness" issue here is completely removed from conference affiliation, and instead speaks of fairness on a level of who is perceived as the top 8 in the nation. As a process, it suffers the exact same problems as the current BCS (ie being dependent in part on human bias, and computer programming issues), though it invites more teams to the party. As will be seen below, such a system does tend to generate more "great games" than does the current bowl system (at least at a glance), but also amounts to little more than the same money grab already present while resting on the same flaws as the current system. In short, while potentially more exciting over a number of games, there is little principle involved save for the assumption that humans and computers maybe can't select the top 2, but can figure out the top 8 adequately enough.

There will be some commentary in each post regarding the information, and I think it'll become clear (if it's not already) that there is little desire for a principled playoff (Conference champions) and instead people simply want to have better post season games to watch. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. The problem I have is people going beyond the assertion by suggesting that it's more "fair" or more "principled" or any of that. A 6+2 and an 8 team playoff is as arbitrary as the current BCS, masking the particular failings under a larger field, while at the same time offering the potential for a team that probably doesn't truly deserve consideration for the title, a shot at that title. That is to suggest that while a playoff does represent a system of determination of a champion, there are no benefits in that system which are remarkably different than the current system. While we would accept a playoff champion as the national champion, the truth is, the selection settles little and is just as "mythical" in reality. A playoff makes little effort to reward the best team, choosing the best team on a particular day against a particular opponent. It's as random as anything else. That is easily illustrated with the following example: Suppose #1 USC plays #4 Texas and wins 17-15 in an epic battle. #3 Utah plays #2 Alabama and wins 28-10. Can't Texas argue it would have beat Utah, and only lost as a consequence of the seeding? Of course they could. A playoff settles nothing. It's merely a recognized system of determination. It's legitimate. But, its not the only way to determine a champion and it is not fail safe.

Methodology

In setteling on what numbers to use I had to make some choices. It is recognized that there are other ways in which to evaluate the information and therefore the conclusions will be tainted by these choices. That said, we should agree that we need some manner to evaluate the data and so here are the reasons the information considered was choosen, and for what ends those means decided upon.

Conference champions - In the event Co-Champions from a conference, the team selected for our purposes will be by considering the team from that conference who went to the BCS bowl (ie Purdue in 2000 from the Big Ten, despite being Co-Champs with Michigan and Northwestern). If there was a Co-Championship in a conference which does not receive an auto-bid to a BCS game, the team selected was selected based on the following principle, in order: Overall Record, Higher BCS rank, stronger schedule, final AP rank. As before, it is recognized that this may not be the case in "reality" all the time, but for our purposes here, in the interest of full disclosure, was the manner of selection.

At Large Selections - At large selections were made by taking the highest BCS rating remaining in the pool of teams once conference champions had been removed (in the 6+2 system) or simply taking the top 8, as the BCS does not generate (or has not generated) ties.

Strength of Schedule - All SOS numbers are dervied from Sagarin's formulation. I choose this for two reasons. First, the datat was readily available and accessible. Second, while there are other formulations, the Sagarin SOS ratings consider a multitude of factors which I feel are germane for consideration. It is admitted that there are other means to determine SOS. To the extent, however, that any one process is chosen, the data is internally consistent by use of the same formula throughout each year. That said, it must also be noted, the SOS rankings below are post bowl rankings, which is perhaps inappropriate with respect to selection for our hypothetical playoffs. It is further noted, that in the year 2000, and only for this year, the SOS rankings are pre-bowl and I could not find post bowl rankings.
Team Records - It must be noted, a team's record is post bowl. The reason for selecting post bowl record was merely for the ease of doing so, as it was contained on the same page(s) as the Sagarin data and I don't have unlimited time for this project. Pre-bowl records are probably more appropriate, but for our purposes here, I think, not a critical consideration.
Final AP - All AP rankings listed below are from the final AP poll for that season. It is recognized that the AP poll suffers several failings and is only useful for limited purposes. The intention herein is not to use the rating as an authority on a team's actual ability, but instead simply a guide as to the general "feeling" of how a team was regarded nationally. Thus, while reasonable minds may disagree with Ohio State ranking 4 in 2003, begind #3 Oklahoma, the data is not intended to establish OU was acutally better, but that they were perceived as such by one group of humans.

Final Sagarin Ratings - Like the selection of the AP poll, the Sagarin ratings were used for the limited purpose of illustrating what the computers "thought" of a team. There are several computer polls which could have been utilized for this purpose, some perhaps better and some perhaps worse. Again, the use of the Sagarin rating was in part owing to ease of finding the information (as it came on the same page as the SOS data). It is recognized that the poll suffers it's own failings - most notably demonstrated in 2002 where Sagarin listed USC as number 1, Miami of Florida 2, and Ohio State 3, despite the fact that Ohio State was 13-0 (USC was 11-2) and had beaten Miami on the field. That said, use of the poll is - again - not intended to illustrate any "truth of the matter" but to instead capture on some level the computer poll results.

Brackets - The number of conferences to be considered has changed since 1998. As such, the Conference Champions Alone formulation is inconsistent with respect to size - but consistent with regard to the number of conferences at issue in a particular season. The Sun Belt conference did not exist until 2001, for example. Likewise, the MWC did not come in to being until 1999 and the "Big West" conference ended play in 2000. First round byes were given to the teams with the highest BCS ranks to manufacture brackets when necessary. When constructing brackets, care was taken to give seeds 1 and 2 "easier" roads to the title (ie the NCAA tournament pairing 1 v. 16, 2 v. 15 and so on.) Thus, for example, in a 10 game bracket, 9 plays 10 with the winner playing 1, while 7 plays 8 with the winner playing 2. 4 plays 6 winner to face winner of 1 v. 10/9 game, 3 plays 5 with winner playing winner of 2 v. 7/8 game.
Seeding - The same principle in determining conference champions was used when determining seeding:Higher BCS rank, Overall Record, stronger schedule, final AP rank.
Errors - I have been careful to limit any errors in transcribing the information, but leave room for the occasional oversight. If you find an error, please report it to me and I will attempt to insert the correct data. Errors, however, should not be seen as having the hidden purpose of advancing my personal belief that a Playoff settles nothing.

Why not a Plus One? - I have not considered the Plus One format because I think it patently absurd. I have no clue why we would be snowed in to thinking that after a 12 game season, we don't have enough information to pick Title Game contestants, but after bowl season, suddenly we have enough information to select the truly "worthy" contestants. The very idea of a Plus One isn't itself an end, but a means to making people (read, college Presidents and ADs) comfortable with a structure that sort of resembles a playoff. I could be wrong in that conclusion, but I can see no other purpose for it.

With that said, on to the data, and some commentary which I hope develops some of the themes outlined above:

** I have decided to make each year it's own separate thread. First, readers could be "turned off" of reading much of the information if presented in a single thread due to the sheer girth of information to be presented. Second, it occurs to me that each year (and this methodology) may merit discussion and critique and it seems to make more sense to dedicate that discussion to it's individual sub-topic rather than a single thread mish-mash.


Link to Methodology

Link to 1998 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 1999 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2000 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2001 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2002 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2003 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2004 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2005 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2006 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2007 Playoff Hypotheticals
Link to 2008 Playoff Hypotheticals

Link to Conclusions

You mispelled setteling. :biggrin: settling.
Oh wait that doesn't settle anything does it . NM.
 
Upvote 0
MililaniBuckeye;1383293; said:
16-team playoff, period...just like the FCS division (I-AA) has been successfully doing for decades. Use the BCS rankings as the seed generator.

Saying this sounds nice, but it ignores several realities which are outlined in the individual season threads.... Notably, it has nothing to do with a concept of "fairness" to mid majors (in practice) while also inviting teams perceived to be good to the party while others have to watch. Equally important, in my mind anyway, is that in a 16 game playoff we afford a 4 loss team - and maybe even the rare 5 loss team (to put that in perspective, that's including teams who lost up to 33% or more of their games). Why should we believe that the BCS can't find us two teams, but CAN find us 16?
 
Upvote 0
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1383334; said:
Why should we believe that the BCS can't find us two teams, but CAN find us 16?

Different purposes, IMO. The current system says "these are the only two teams worthy of playing for the national championship". Under a 16-team playoff, the system would, IMO, be saying "Here are 16 teams to play for the championship.....Not all of them are worthy, but at least we know we're going to give the worthy teams (whichever ones they are) a chance to play for it."

Any team that has ANY claim at being the best team will be in the top 16. The fact that you have to take some undeserving 3/4 loss teams sucks, but that's just a price to be paid in making sure that all of the best teams are included.
 
Upvote 0
Do we NEED to determine a National Champion?

BKB:
Your analysis is incredible. It's really fun to look at all the situations.

Does the NCAA need to devise a method to rule out all doubt over who the best college football team (on Jan 8) is? I, for one, think that it is interesting to ponder what would happen if:
- Utah played Florida (outside of SEC country)
- USC played Florida at a truly neutral site (Indianapolis/Detroit/St.Louis?)
- Penn State/Ohio State played an SEC team in the cold
- Teams didn't have 5 weeks to prepare for a bowl game

I know that the NCAA has set a precedent that each NCAA sport needs to declare a champion (Sears Cup and all), but a 4, 8, 16 team playoff won't satisfy everyone.

So I say, scrap it and do something interesting. A renowned Ohio State Business School Professor (ok, he's my brother), has the more interesting idea I have heard:

Auction off the teams' to the Bowl promoters.

December 1st, representatives of all the Bowl Games meet at the NCAA headquarters and they bid on who they want to be at their game.

-- If the Sun Bowl wants to have Texas, they can offer $10M
-- If the International Bowl wants to have Florida, they can offer $15M
-- If the Emerald Bowl wants to pay a gazillion dollars to get the 'BCS1' and 'BCS #2', then Florida and Oklahoma play in San Francisco
-- If the Motor City bowl wants to keep their MAC tie-in they can have Central Michigan for travel expenses

on December 8th, the Bowl Reps and the TV reps meet at the NCAA headquarters and they bid on what game each network wants.

---------------------------------------------

-- NCAA takes a cut (buyer's premium) of the team bid amounts
-- NCAA takes a cut (buyer's premium) of the TV bid amounts
-- Conferences can have rules to divvy up the money 'collected' by teams
-- Promoters will know what teams travel well, what games might be appealing to TV to guide their bid-making
-- The TV guys would know which match-ups/dates would be appealing to TV audiences to guide their bid-making
 
Upvote 0
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1383334; said:
Why should we believe that the BCS can't find us two teams, but CAN find us 16?

That's a red herring. The BCS DOES find us two teams each year, who at a minimum absolutely belong in any playoff structure. You can't point to a single BCS title game contender who wouldn't have been a legitimate part of an 8 or 16 team field.

I'll offer that Nebraska in 2001 probably didn't belong in a four team field.

Second, the idea of "fairness" to mid majors is a joke. Why is the MWC good? Because it wins. Why is the Sun Belt lousy? Because it loses. It has nothing to do with conference "status". Allowing the CUSA, Sun Belt, WAC or even Big East champ in automatically isn't even remotely "fair" to programs which are actually good and which actually belong in a playoff. The conferences are unbalanced, with the preponderance of strong programs gathered together in superconferences, and it's very possible that a team could be the best in the country and not win their conference as a result.

In a sixteen team field this season, several mid majors would have earned their way in, including Boise State, TCU, BYU and Utah, so it's quite possible with the current BCS math that multiple mid majors can crash the party. Even Ball State was knocking on the door for a while, despite clearly not belonging.

In fact, finishing top 8 in the BCS poll is as meritocratic as you can get. If Ohio University schedules a strong OOC slate and wins out, they could make the playoff ahead of Ohio State, regardless of conference affiliation.

However, if OU were to lose all of their OOC games, sneak into the MAC title game via a tiebreaker, then catch lightning in a bottle for one game and win the automatic conference bid, under a "conference winners go" system, would a barely above .500 OU "deserve" to go to the playoffs over a one-loss Ohio State team out of "fairness"?

That idea of "fairness" is just like sending the kid who finished 50th in his class to Harvard and sending the Valedictorian to the local community college.

I am fully confident that the "best" team in the country can finish in the to eight and be eligible for an eight team playoff. Honestly, I defy you to find a school with a legitimate argument as to being the best in the country that didn't finish in the top 8 in the final regular season BCS poll.

Even this years cause celebre for BCS "unfairness", Utah, finished sixth and would have easily been in either an eight or sixteen team playoff.

I'd be down with the eight top finishers, since I think that a top 16 starts to introduce some real pretenders from 2008 (BSU, TCU, Cincy, GaTech, UGA, OkState, and yes, Ohio State). The top eight this year were all legitimate: Florida, Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Alabama, Utah, Penn State and TTech, with 'Bama, PSU and TTech turning out to be the weakest of the group.

Do you see a REAL national champion not represented in those eight? Do you see a lousy game in any of those matchups, other than any game involving the Nittany Kitties? :biggrin:

Eight teams, three weeks, use the four major bowls as first round playoff sites, use two of them as semifinal sites, one as a finals site, rotate the sites each year and let's get this thing done. Hope, Change, Yeswecan.
 
Upvote 0
My objections to the BCS is not the failings of the formula. My objection is the assumption that it rests on: that 119 teams playing very different 12-game schedules will boil down to no more than 2 teams that deserve a shot at the national championship. I think numerous years have demonstrated that the number is just as frequently 3 as it is 2 (sometimes it is only 1, which shouldn't be counted as 2).

Given that there are frequently years where 3 or more teams warrant a shot, I think a playoff is preferable because it is more inclusive than the current BCS model. A playoff is not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. I think a deserving team getting left out is more wrong than an undeserving team getting a shot. Also consider that the BCS is not immune to having undeserving teams get a shot because there can be years where one team has a much better season than anyone else. The BCS still requires them to play an extra game.

Another problem I have is the layoff factor. We really have no way of knowing how big an effect the month+ layoff has on the game result, but intuition suggests it isn't positive. A playoff cuts down on that layoff issue.
 
Upvote 0
BrutusBobcat;1383429; said:
and it's very possible that a team could be the best in the country and not win their conference as a result.

That makes absolutely no sense, which is exactly the issue I have with a 16 team playoff (or any other number over 11 -- assuming the number of conferences doesn't change.)

There is no imaginable way a "wildcard" can logically call themselves champions after failing to even with their own "subdivision."
The ONLY way that makes sense is if you're saying losing doesn't matter. But if losing doesn't matter, why don't we just declare ourselves National Champions for 2006? :roll2:
 
Upvote 0
23Skidoo;1385164; said:
That makes absolutely no sense, which is exactly the issue I have with a 16 team playoff (or any other number over 11 -- assuming the number of conferences doesn't change.)

There is no imaginable way a "wildcard" can logically call themselves champions after failing to even with their own "subdivision."
The ONLY way that makes sense is if you're saying losing doesn't matter. But if losing doesn't matter, why don't we just declare ourselves National Champions for 2006? :roll2:
It is possible because the "Conference championship" measures a distinct subset of games (8 or 9), whereas "National championship" considers all 12/13/14 games.

Otherwise, you face this possibility:

Ohio State is 11-1 with one loss to Penn State. Penn State (9-3) lost three non-conference games. USC (9-3) lost two conference games and one non-conference game, but won the Pac-10.

Should PSU and/or USC get the nod over Ohio State?
 
Upvote 0
methomps;1385169; said:
It is possible because the "Conference championship" measures a distinct subset of games (8 or 9), whereas "National championship" considers all 12/13/14 games.

Otherwise, you face this possibility:

Ohio State is 11-1 with one loss to Penn State. Penn State (9-3) lost three non-conference games. USC (9-3) lost two conference games and one non-conference game, but won the Pac-10.

Should PSU and/or USC get the nod over Ohio State?

Actually that logic proves that there is more worth in the 8 or 9 games. This is because those were against a web of shared opponents (esp in the case of P10.)
The other 3 or 4 ... well ... that really depends on who you play. Penn State being a 1-loss team makes my point for me this year. Their OOC schedule was very weak and all you're really saying is that Ohio State or USC or Texas (05/06) should be punished for actually scheduling a decent game.
If we're going to go by overall record of 12 games amongst 119 teams and throw out the only common ground that exists... that's pure insanity. That's counterproductive to what all these mindless playoff affeciandos claim they want in the first place: a consensus victor.
 
Upvote 0
Thomps:

Maybe so, but as a fan of the game isn't high stakes what we're looking for? In considering your objection to the BCS, I am wondering your answer. Take Auburn 2004. We had 3 teams from 'power conferences' who were undefeated and "deserving" shots. We credited the two teams who had zero loss records, and who played more difficult schedules. In an 8 team playoff, and a 16 for that matter, you're going to see teams padding their OOC with patsies because SOS won't matter. We'd reward 2004 Auburn and their 60th rated schedule (And that was after playing Virginia Tech) instead of punishing it. For the fan in me, I say punish it. Give me better games to watch, because Ohio State v. Akron isn't a whole lot of fun.

But, I tell you this - if all you have to do is win 11 or 12 games to qualify - you're not going to be scheduling potential losses in your OOC. Likewise, we'd find reward for weak conferences as well... Blast through a shitty OOC and a Shitty Conf. and you're in!
 
Upvote 0
23Skidoo;1385164; said:
That makes absolutely no sense, which is exactly the issue I have with a 16 team playoff (or any other number over 11 -- assuming the number of conferences doesn't change.)

There is no imaginable way a "wildcard" can logically call themselves champions after failing to even with their own "subdivision."
The ONLY way that makes sense is if you're saying losing doesn't matter. But if losing doesn't matter, why don't we just declare ourselves National Champions for 2006? :roll2:
However, any number under eleven would almost certainly be set up without using conference autobids. If you autobid some conferences and not others, there will be lawsuits and probably a genuine antitrust case. So that would basically mean either a ranking system like the BCS (a bogus idea; if it can't pick two then it can't pick eight) or a competition committee - and that means, practically every year, there will be multiple teams from at least one conference.

The only way your complaint can be satisfied is an 11-team playoff, which would bring Troy into the picture and eliminate Texas, among others. Nobody would consider that even remotely equitable or entertaining.
 
Upvote 0
Back
Top