Home Networking Questions (and my oh crap moment)

[scarletmike]

Alright, so in all the steps of buying and building our first house I got very excited that I could do ethernet ports in every room, which I of course did (really was a surprisingly cheap option, under $200 w/CAT6 cabling). Have the OnQ box in the laundry room which is upstairs with an outlet inside it, I'm excited and have everything planned out in my head, this is going to be awesome. Then comes my "oh crap" moment just this morning when I start looking closer at what networking gear I want to buy for the new place, if any at all. In all my excitement around the house I forgot a home networking basic that the order should be modem>router>switch, when I had been thinking modem>switch>router the entire time with the modem and switch hidden in the OnQ box and the router living in the office across the hall...where I did not put a cable outlet because I figured if I wanted to put a TV in there I'd just use the cable provider app/YouTubeTV/Sling for live programming if I wanted instead of paying for another cable box. Well that appears to have been a fatal flaw in my excited planning around the house, which leads to my question(s) below, since I know a few on here have more complex home networks and IT experience.

What's going to be the easiest, least hassle way to keep the actual wireless router in the office room instead of needing to try and fit the beastly, good wireless routers of today into the thin OnQ box? I do have an old, thin wireless router that I have no qualms trying to flash with DD-WRT if necessary, or spending $20-30 more than I was going to on a switch to get a cheap newer wireless router if I don't need to flash it and can just use it with some basic settings tweaks and no wireless/in its standard bridge mode(s). I don't mind going down the route of learning about VLANS either, if that makes my original, excitement-addled plan workable without too much headache and maintenance (planning on doing some smart home integration and I know that can be headache-inducing on its own merits, so trying to avoid any more major networking issues I create myself).

 

[sparcboxbuck]

Alright, so in all the steps of buying and building our first house I got very excited that I could do ethernet ports in every room, which I of course did (really was a surprisingly cheap option, under $200 w/CAT6 cabling). Have the OnQ box in the laundry room which is upstairs with an outlet inside it, I'm excited and have everything planned out in my head, this is going to be awesome. Then comes my "oh crap" moment just this morning when I start looking closer at what networking gear I want to buy for the new place, if any at all. In all my excitement around the house I forgot a home networking basic that the order should be modem>router>switch, when I had been thinking modem>switch>router the entire time with the modem and switch hidden in the OnQ box and the router living in the office across the hall...where I did not put a cable outlet because I figured if I wanted to put a TV in there I'd just use the cable provider app/YouTubeTV/Sling for live programming if I wanted instead of paying for another cable box. Well that appears to have been a fatal flaw in my excited planning around the house, which leads to my question(s) below, since I know a few on here have more complex home networks and IT experience.

What's going to be the easiest, least hassle way to keep the actual wireless router in the office room instead of needing to try and fit the beastly, good wireless routers of today into the thin OnQ box? I do have an old, thin wireless router that I have no qualms trying to flash with DD-WRT if necessary, or spending $20-30 more than I was going to on a switch to get a cheap newer wireless router if I don't need to flash it and can just use it with some basic settings tweaks and no wireless/in its standard bridge mode(s). I don't mind going down the route of learning about VLANS either, if that makes my original, excitement-addled plan workable without too much headache and maintenance (planning on doing some smart home integration and I know that can be headache-inducing on its own merits, so trying to avoid any more major networking issues I create myself).

Can you share a wiring diagram and where you want things to live?

 

[scarletmike]

Can you share a wiring diagram and where you want things to live?

Alright, here's a very basic diagram with the OnQ and rooms with data plates that is hopefully helpful. Below is the list of rooms and what I ideally want in each in the final setup.

Laundry (OnQ box)

• Modem
• Switch/wired router

Office

• Wireless router
• PC, printer, possibly NAS and a smart home hub

Living Room

• AppleTV
• Possibly NAS or smart home hub

If necessary, the modem could live in the living room, but I would prefer to keep the wireless router in the office for a few reasons. Like I said, if using a smaller/cheaper router with wireless turned off or in a bridge mode as a switch in the OnQ along with the modem is easier, I'm good with that. Basically trying to avoid as few additional headaches for the wife to blame on my desire to go bigger when the network eventually goes down and it's not obviously Spectrum being down that's the culprit. So an extra router or two to power down and reset isn't a big deal, but if I'm doing a lot of backend network management type of things to get it up and troubleshoot down the road...not as thrilled with that. And yes, those rooms are in that linear arrangement in the house (about 1800 sqft).

 

[sparcboxbuck]

A few more clarifications:

Can you share the onQ model?
Actually, all the models of your modem, routers, nas and / smart home hubs would help.
What room is Spectrum’s feed coming into?
What is your intention with two routers? Candidly, that would likely cause you more headaches than anything. You could have a very good reason for this… like a dedicated vpn for work running through the primary router DMZ, but if not something like that, I’d simplify. Let me know your thinking / needs there.

 

[scarletmike]

I believe the onQ box is an ENP2080 with a door. It has an outlet in it, and this is also where the cable distributes from. Once we call Spectrum after we close to set up service they'll obviously have their splitter(s) in here, and I was hoping to just tell them to plan for the modem being in there as well when they put the splitters in. Picture of the box with the cables neatly installed and waiting is here.

As far as known equipment, that's pretty much just my DS920+ NAS. It looks like we'll be getting Arlo cameras and a doorbell, so the corresponding hub would be the Arlo VMB5000. I do have an Aruba for work that allows me to have native company network access instead of going through the craptastic software VPN on our laptops (IT will pry it from my cold dead hands if they want it back before I leave the company ), but I don't have to do anything special for that, just plug it into the main router and I have my wireless and wired company network available from it.

The modem will be whatever Spectrum gives me, currently an Arris TM1602. If they give me the same equipment when we move (we're not intending to move service, going to try signing up as a "new customer" at the new place), the modem will likely fit fine in the onQ, but I think their more recent equipment is bulkier. I only mentioned 2 routers because I figured that a cheap router (like this) with wireless turned off and/or in an alternate mode to serve as the switch would be easier (and cheaper) than needing to find a good managed switch that can do DHCP routing and has a decent enough firewall/security. I've been eyeing up something along the lines of a Linksys AC1900 or Netgear Nighthawk AX2400 for the wireless router in the office instead of whatever Spectrum would give me. Obviously most of the good, beefy wireless routers these days won't fit in the onQ.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

@scarletmike

Honestly, I think you’re over thinking all of this.

Get your feed to the cable modem. I presume this will be a combined modem / router. Let that handle everything, including DHCP as well as any fixed IPs you want to establish (I used fixed IPs for WiFi speakers, for instance).

Pipe from the cable modem to a managed bridge. Frankly, you probably don’t even need a managed bridge, but I’d rather reboot it from software control as opposed to pulling the plug and doing a hardware reboot (things like this will happen, although not often).

Use your bridge to distribute your IP signal to rooms you have hardwired in the house.

Look at integrating mesh WiFi to give you a contiguous WiFi network across your property. That is, turn off the WiFi from your cable modem and let the mesh network do its job.

Call it a day.

The above is basically what I have here. One contiguous hard wire and wifi network that gives me 5 bars on the wifi indoors and out across 3/4 of an acre. I do have two wifi endpoints outside, one in front of the house and one in the back. This will be handy if you’re using Arlo (I also have Arlo).

I can’t tell you the last time I _really_ had to do any kind of management of the network. Not joking, it’s been plug and p(l)ay for over six or seven years and I last logged into a device to manage the network sometime before Covid.

Simplicity will be your best friend.

Edit: Will you have a separate cable modem that does not have routing? I’m not familiar with that Aris device. If so, the method I’d go with is: modem -> wired router -> bridge -> rooms. In rooms you can add your mesh wireless endpoints. Most decent mesh devices will have a line in / line out so you don’t lose your ability to connect to hardwire in the room.

I would absolutely not try to stuff a wireless router in a box like that. Your signal will degrade quickly with distance and physical obstacles. Especially if you’re going to have wifi Arlo devices, you will need far greater signal than what you’d get with a single wifi point.

I’d also suggest looking for a mesh option that has 2.4 and 5G radios. There’s a lot of home automation stuff that really likes the 2.4 signal range. I use OpenMesh / CloudTrax for my wifi network. That’s been sold to Datto and I don’t think that they are bothering to develop anymore. It was a buy the device and the management software is free for life. It looks like Aruba may have a nice solution. I would absolutely NOT opt for a ‘for home’ solution. Go with something that is designed for small business or more. The Aruba solutions look to be a good fit for this.

Edit 2: Looks like the dudes from OpenMesh got pissed at Datto and how they handled the acquisition and the customer base. They rolled out a new solution. If it’s anything like the original OpenMesh, I’d not hesitate to go with this solution: https://www.plasma-cloud.com/

Edit 3: I just looked up the Arris TM1602 device. It is most certainly not a router. You’ll need a stand alone router for sure. I think that this makes it a clear choice to get a non-wifi router because it will have to sit in your box and your reception will be terrible. Find a good non-wifi router. I do use higher end Netgear devices for our network. Going with something that is non-wifi likely will get you a better router and network management interface. Key things to look for, and I can’t think of an instance where this doesn’t exist include: Firewall — perhaps with differential rules if you want / need, DMZ, and the ability to save the settings to an object (guessing json) in the event that something blows out, you can just reload your settings and go. Spend your money on the mesh network toys. The combined wifi / routers that have any kind of ass to them are stupid expensive. You’ll end up with much better service with a separate mesh network.

Take a look at my signal strength on my Arlo devices. These are sitting no more than 50 ft from mesh network endpoints that are outside. Putting your wifi signal in a box will really hose you with your Arlo connections.





Have fun. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to think about these things. Good news, I don’t think about it because it’s been super stable on my end… Bad news, I don’t get to tinker because it’s been super stable on my end.

 

[scarletmike]

@scarletmike

Honestly, I think you’re over thinking all of this.

Get your feed to the cable modem. I presume this will be a combined modem / router. Let that handle everything, including DHCP as well as any fixed IPs you want to establish (I used fixed IPs for WiFi speakers, for instance).

Pipe from the cable modem to a managed bridge. Frankly, you probably don’t even need a managed bridge, but I’d rather reboot it from software control as opposed to pulling the plug and doing a hardware reboot (things like this will happen, although not often).

Use your bridge to distribute your IP signal to rooms you have hardwired in the house.

Look at integrating mesh WiFi to give you a contiguous WiFi network across your property. That is, turn off the WiFi from your cable modem and let the mesh network do its job.

Call it a day.

The above is basically what I have here. One contiguous hard wire and wifi network that gives me 5 bars on the wifi indoors and out across 3/4 of an acre. I do have two wifi endpoints outside, one in front of the house and one in the back. This will be handy if you’re using Arlo (I also have Arlo).

I can’t tell you the last time I _really_ had to do any kind of management of the network. Not joking, it’s been plug and p(l)ay for over six or seven years and I last logged into a device to manage the network sometime before Covid.

Simplicity will be your best friend.

Edit: Will you have a separate cable modem that does not have routing? I’m not familiar with that Aris device. If so, the method I’d go with is: modem -> wired router -> bridge -> rooms. In rooms you can add your mesh wireless endpoints. Most decent mesh devices will have a line in / line out so you don’t lose your ability to connect to hardwire in the room.

I would absolutely not try to stuff a wireless router in a box like that. Your signal will degrade quickly with distance and physical obstacles. Especially if you’re going to have wifi Arlo devices, you will need far greater signal than what you’d get with a single wifi point.

I’d also suggest looking for a mesh option that has 2.4 and 5G radios. There’s a lot of home automation stuff that really likes the 2.4 signal range. I use OpenMesh / CloudTrax for my wifi network. That’s been sold to Datto and I don’t think that they are bothering to develop anymore. It was a buy the device and the management software is free for life. It looks like Aruba may have a nice solution. I would absolutely NOT opt for a ‘for home’ solution. Go with something that is designed for small business or more. The Aruba solutions look to be a good fit for this.

Edit 2: Looks like the dudes from OpenMesh got pissed at Datto and how they handled the acquisition and the customer base. They rolled out a new solution. If it’s anything like the original OpenMesh, I’d not hesitate to go with this solution: https://www.plasma-cloud.com/

Edit 3: I just looked up the Arris TM1602 device. It is most certainly not a router. You’ll need a stand alone router for sure. I think that this makes it a clear choice to get a non-wifi router because it will have to sit in your box and your reception will be terrible. Find a good non-wifi router. I do use higher end Netgear devices for our network. Going with something that is non-wifi likely will get you a better router and network management interface. Key things to look for, and I can’t think of an instance where this doesn’t exist include: Firewall — perhaps with differential rules if you want / need, DMZ, and the ability to save the settings to an object (guessing json) in the event that something blows out, you can just reload your settings and go. Spend your money on the mesh network toys. The combined wifi / routers that have any kind of ass to them are stupid expensive. You’ll end up with much better service with a separate mesh network.

Take a look at my signal strength on my Arlo devices. These are sitting no more than 50 ft from mesh network endpoints that are outside. Putting your wifi signal in a box will really hose you with your Arlo connections.


View attachment 32718


Have fun. It’s been a long time since I’ve had to think about these things. Good news, I don’t think about it because it’s been super stable on my end… Bad news, I don’t get to tinker because it’s been super stable on my end.

I really appreciate the detailed advice/info you've given, so thank you for that. Just to follow up with some clarifiers and to make sure I'm not misinterpreting anything: When it comes to wired routers, choices are predictably scant unless I want expensive 12+ port rack monsters. There seem to be 2 "winners" for a consumer like me with enough networking knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to really make the professional/enterprise-focused ones work correctly, the Ubiquiti ER-X or the TP-Link ER605. Given that I would like to have everything up and running by the time I'm fully moved in (roughly 2 weeks after closing on Aug 30), availability also seems to be an issue with basically no Ubiquiti products in stock until September at the earliest. The TP-Link router seems to be my best bet if I'm looking for just a wired router, correct?

Availability and limited options are what made me initially think about buying a sub-$100 consumer wireless router that can fit in the OnQ box and turn off the wifi so it's just acting as a wired router. If I went with a mesh system (likely the Linksys Velop since it seems to be an Apple-suggested HomeKit router), I suppose I could have the modem and main unit live in the master, using the ethernet port in there as the line to a switch in the OnQ, with an additional wireless satellite either in the front bedroom upstairs, or downstairs in the kitchen/dining room to provide better coverage to our smart home devices (it's only 1800sqft so about 50-55ft front to back, including the garage, which is why I figured having a single powerful wireless router in the office which is the middle of the upstairs would be the best placement). It still seems like my best bet, though, may be a modem/router combo like the Netgear AC1750 (with wifi turned off on that) that fits in the OnQ to distribute to the rooms directly? And after doing some more reading, it sounds like a mesh parent node in the master with the modem and a switch in the OnQ to a second node in the kitchen (I can hardline it, just requires about 12 feet of cable channel on the wall between the outlet behind the entertainment center and the end of the kitchen counter) may be the best way to go, and I'll just have a second switch in the office for the multiple connections I'll need in there.

The reason I'm dead set against having a wireless router in the living room near the TV where there are 2 ethernet outlets plus cable (and thus making my situation more complex) is because I (probably stupidly) wanted a relatively wire-free surround sound solution for the apartment that could also work when we moved into a house which led me to the Polk Magnifi Max SR with wireless surround speakers. There's of course a baseline of some occasional popping and static that comes with a wireless surround solution, but it is noticeably worse when there's a lot happening on the wireless network, and I know several people with this sound bar have mentioned that it helped immensely when they moved their wireless router away from the sound bar (mine currently lives behind the TV and sound bar) since the sound bar's wireless network has to "compete" with the router right behind it.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

I really appreciate the detailed advice/info you've given, so thank you for that. Just to follow up with some clarifiers and to make sure I'm not misinterpreting anything: When it comes to wired routers, choices are predictably scant unless I want expensive 12+ port rack monsters. There seem to be 2 "winners" for a consumer like me with enough networking knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to really make the professional/enterprise-focused ones work correctly, the Ubiquiti ER-X or the TP-Link ER605. Given that I would like to have everything up and running by the time I'm fully moved in (roughly 2 weeks after closing on Aug 30), availability also seems to be an issue with basically no Ubiquiti products in stock until September at the earliest. The TP-Link router seems to be my best bet if I'm looking for just a wired router, correct?

Availability and limited options are what made me initially think about buying a sub-$100 consumer wireless router that can fit in the OnQ box and turn off the wifi so it's just acting as a wired router. If I went with a mesh system (likely the Linksys Velop since it seems to be an Apple-suggested HomeKit router), I suppose I could have the modem and main unit live in the master, using the ethernet port in there as the line to a switch in the OnQ, with an additional wireless satellite either in the front bedroom upstairs, or downstairs in the kitchen/dining room to provide better coverage to our smart home devices (it's only 1800sqft so about 50-55ft front to back, including the garage, which is why I figured having a single powerful wireless router in the office which is the middle of the upstairs would be the best placement). It still seems like my best bet, though, may be a modem/router combo like the Netgear AC1750 (with wifi turned off on that) that fits in the OnQ to distribute to the rooms directly? And after doing some more reading, it sounds like a mesh parent node in the master with the modem and a switch in the OnQ to a second node in the kitchen (I can hardline it, just requires about 12 feet of cable channel on the wall between the outlet behind the entertainment center and the end of the kitchen counter) may be the best way to go, and I'll just have a second switch in the office for the multiple connections I'll need in there.

The reason I'm dead set against having a wireless router in the living room near the TV where there are 2 ethernet outlets plus cable (and thus making my situation more complex) is because I (probably stupidly) wanted a relatively wire-free surround sound solution for the apartment that could also work when we moved into a house which led me to the Polk Magnifi Max SR with wireless surround speakers. There's of course a baseline of some occasional popping and static that comes with a wireless surround solution, but it is noticeably worse when there's a lot happening on the wireless network, and I know several people with this sound bar have mentioned that it helped immensely when they moved their wireless router away from the sound bar (mine currently lives behind the TV and sound bar) since the sound bar's wireless network has to "compete" with the router right behind it.

I think you’re on the right track. You could absolutely get away with a non-wifi router, but the option to turn on the SSID if you want a separate one is always an option. The price differential is not meaningful if you don’t pick one of the stupid expensive ones.

If you’re going to follow the mesh network route, do your homework. I would absolutely stay away from things that are designed for consumers. There’s a lot of shit out there and a lot of companies who are very happy to take your money. If you want to set it and forget it, that is… have the kind of reliability that a business has… don’t skimp. The price differential between the options is NOT worth your headaches.

Good luck with your wireless surround stuff. I have Yamaha equipment (RX-V4A which is a screaming deal compared to what it used to cost) powering wired Klipsch for front, center and sub channels and use the Yams for wireless surround. This amp also pushes wired signal to outdoor speakers on our porch and match or separate input channels (watch game inside and wife listens to music outside). I run the wireless surround on a dedicated 2.4G SSID on my mesh network. That 2.4 SSID is for home automation / entertainment devices only… for range and stability. I do have some other Yams that I run IP hardwired in my office and there is a noticeable difference between the sound of the Ethernet connection and the wireless… but really, it’s only due to the stability of the wireless network. That’s why they are on a 2.4G signal.

All in, I think you’re heading in the right direction. Enjoy!

 

[sparcboxbuck]

@scarletmike, how’d this all turn out for you?

 

[scarletmike]

@scarletmike, how’d this all turn out for you?

I ended up simplifying things a bit from what I was first thinking and it has worked out great so far. I managed to get an ERX4 without waiting too long, and the final setup is the ERX4 in the OnQ box upstairs, the modem unfortunately had to go downstairs because there’s only 2 outlets in the box, and an ASUS ROG GT-AX11000 in the office. I get solid signal even outside for the cameras and doing things like messing with the sprinkler controller (getting the Rainbird wifi module soon so I can do that from my phone instead).

My only concern is that my setup might get disrupted already by Spectrum because it sounds like they screwed up and installed/offered me a coax connection when this apparently should be a fiber only community. They send me an email or two every month saying I should call, but frankly I don’t need or want anything more than my 400MB/s plan, since their cheapest fiber option is still more expensive. So I’m just going to wait it out until they force it and tell them they better be able to keep my network arrangement as is or make it better. I’m not buying new equipment less than a year in because they screwed up.

 

[sparcboxbuck]

Cool. Glad to hear that all is working.

Don’t underestimate how handy that WiFi controller is for your irrigation system. Not joking. Aside from dealing with altering schedules and all, if you winterize your system on your own, which I do, being able to blow out each zone without having to run to the basement to manually turn on / off zones makes the WiFi controller worth the expense. We have a Hunter controller and their application is pretty solid.

And yeah, tell Spectrum to refund your hardware costs and honor your pricing on the coax if they want to switch you to fiber. They’ll go away.

 

[WesleyGreene]

Alright, so in all the steps of buying and building our first house I got very excited that I could do ethernet ports in every room, which I of course did (really was a surprisingly cheap option, under $200 w/CAT6 cabling). Have the OnQ box in the laundry room which is upstairs with an outlet inside it, I'm excited and have everything planned out in my head, this is going to be awesome. Then comes my "oh crap" moment just this morning when I start looking closer at what networking gear I want to buy for the new place, if any at all. In all my excitement around the house I forgot a home networking basic that the order should be modem>router>switch, when I had been thinking modem>switch>router the entire time with the modem and switch hidden in the OnQ box and the router living in the office across the hall...where I did not put a cable outlet because I figured if I wanted to put a TV in there I'd just use the cable provider app/YouTubeTV/Sling for live programming if I wanted instead of paying for another cable box. Well that appears to have been a fatal flaw in my excited planning around the house, which leads to my question(s) below, since I know a few on here have more complex home networks and IT experience.

What's going to be the easiest, least hassle way to keep the actual wireless router in the office room instead of needing to try and fit the beastly, good wireless routers of today into the thin OnQ box? I do have an old, thin wireless router that I have no qualms trying to flash with DD-WRT if necessary, or spending $20-30 more than I was going to on a switch to get a cheap newer wireless router if I don't need to flash it and can just use it with some basic settings tweaks and no wireless/in its standard bridge mode(s). I don't mind going down the route of learning about VLANS either, if that makes my original, excitement-addled plan workable without too much headache and maintenance (planning on doing some smart home integration and I know that can be headache-inducing on its own merits, so trying to avoid any more major networking issues I create myself). f you want to find yourself a safe and free APK GTA 5 Mobile on the phone platform, the Getmodnow website is the choice for you with images and gameplay similar to those on your computer.

Here are some suggestions:

Use a wireless bridge: If you want to keep the wireless router in your office room, you can use a wireless bridge to connect it to the modem in the OnQ box. A wireless bridge essentially extends the network wirelessly between two separate locations. You can set up the bridge in the laundry room where the modem is located and connect it to the router in the office room. This way, you can utilize the wired Ethernet ports in every room while keeping the router in the desired location.

Powerline adapters: Another option is to use powerline adapters, which allow you to extend your network using the electrical wiring in your house. With powerline adapters, you can connect the modem in the laundry room to the router in the office room using the electrical outlets. This eliminates the need for long Ethernet cable runs.

VLANs: If you're open to learning about VLANs and want to take advantage of their benefits, you can create separate virtual networks within your home network. This would involve configuring VLANs on your router and managed switch (if you decide to use one). You can assign different VLANs to different Ethernet ports in the OnQ box and configure your wireless router to support VLANs. This way, you can maintain separate networks for different purposes while still utilizing the Ethernet ports in every room.

Use a smaller router or access point: If you don't mind investing in additional networking equipment, you can consider using a smaller wireless router or an access point in the OnQ box. These devices are typically smaller and more compact than full-sized routers, making it easier to fit them in tight spaces. You can connect the modem to the smaller router or access point and then connect your main wireless router in the office room to the switch in the OnQ box.