Four teens kicked off Amtrak

[OCBuckWife]

If the kid was actually returning the iPod, then chances are he is actually a pretty good kid, and the parents had no reason to expect trouble.

Perhaps, if the parents were only factoring in how their kids act and behave in a normal situation. However, sending them alone on a train trip adds in numerous other factors that have a very high likelihood of modifying, good and bad, that same expected behavior. Such as, in this instance, the reaction of an Amtrak employee upon discovery of possible theft. Such as, poor behavior from some other child. Such as, the parents of that same "other child" feeling the same way, that "they have a good kid, he/she wouldn't lie." (Just to make some assumptions for sake of debate.)

Employees of a business cannot reasonably be expected to react like a patient parent. It is not part of the job description or a justifiable expectation of them. They do what they think follows established company policy combined with personal judgement. To expect more of them is ridiculous. If you drop your child off in a bookstore in a mall, for example, and leave to go shopping for an hour, it is a completely unreasonable expectation to assign responsibility of the safety of your child to an employee of that bookstore. They have a job to do and it does not entail babysitting your kid for free.

When I had my flight leg that took me into Poland, the airline employees had been notified that I was a child traveling alone. I was escorted onto the plane, checked on while I was on the plane, escorted off the plane, and personally escorted and checked into my hotel for the overnight stay in Warsaw. I was told that an employee would be back to pick me up and repeat the procedure. No one stayed with me, no one told the desk that I was not allowed out, no extra precautions, outside of established company policy was taken.

I went out into Warsaw, on my own, at night, because I chose too. I was a kid, it seemed a reasonable action to me. I took what precautions, at nine, I thought were required. WTF did I know from stupid and dangerous beyond what I had already been able to absorb at that age with so little real life experience?

My mother didn't sue the the airline. She cast no blame on the airline. She cast blame fully where it belonged, my father, for not bringing me back as was the plan.

That's all I'm saying. Unreasonable situations can end up with unusual reactions and consequences. A child (under 15) traveling alone is fraught with possible unusual consequences. That is for the parents to deal with.

I would have a completely different reaction if the employees actions had resulted in actual harm to the children, of course. That would be worthwhile of a complete and total "shitstorm."

 

[scooter1369]

I don't see how your experience travelling abroad alone at the age of 9 has any relevance to the issue of four teenagers travelling together to Arizona from California.

If these kids had made this trip several times in the past without incident, and this happened to them, as a parent, I'd be livid.

Hell, just knowing my own children, if it was their first trip and they were dumped to the cops 600 miles from home for an alleged crime on the single word of another kid, I'd be furious.

The conductor had no right to treat this kids as criminals without just cause.

 

[Deety]

Tough to say they're adult enough to be on the train by themselves, but should not have been asked to leave merely because they are kids. If they want to argue that any other passenger would not have been asked to leave under the same circumstances, that's fine, but if they are saying the kids should have been treated differently because they are kids... well, babysitting isn't the job of the train personnel, and that would be a sign that the parents should not have allowed this group to travel unsupervised. I don't think I would have put them off the train in similar circumstances, but if they did treat these passengers like any other, it's tough to argue that they should be required to do anything else.

 

[scooter1369]

Tough to say they're adult enough to be on the train by themselves, but should not have been asked to leave merely because they are kids. If they want to argue that any other passenger would not have been asked to leave under the same circumstances, that's fine, but if they are saying the kids should have been treated differently because they are kids... well, babysitting isn't the job of the train personnel, and that would be a sign that the parents should not have allowed this group to travel unsupervised. I don't think I would have put them off the train in similar circumstances, but if they did treat these passengers like any other, it's tough to argue that they should be required to do anything else.

I have trouble believing that they would have removed a 30 year old pregnant woman and her family on the word of some brat who claims she stole her precious iPod.

The kids were booted because they were kids accused of something that no one could prove.

 

[Deety]

I have trouble believing that they would have removed a 30 year old pregnant woman and her family on the word of some brat who claims she stole her precious iPod.

The kids were booted because they were kids accused of something that no one could prove.

If that is the case I agree completely. I just have difficulty imagining that anyone would really handle this type of situation so casually, so it seems at least possible that the kids might be downplaying their behavior a bit. No objective data either way, though.

 

[scooter1369]

If that is the case I agree completely. I just have difficulty imagining that anyone would really handle this type of situation so casually, so it seems at least possible that the kids might be downplaying their behavior a bit. No objective data either way, though.

I guess I'm more miffed at the "pulled out of her butt" assertion by OCBuckWife that the parents were somehow the problem here because these four kids were traveling alone. Its the kind ignorant assumption that I would expect from someone who essentially just a child themself.

I am easily the most involved and dedicated parent I know, but my kids get in trouble too. They're kids. To pull a "Its the parents fault" defense of Amtrak with absolutely zero knowledge of the parents, their parenting methods or the legal history of these kids is absurd.

 

[Muck]

I guess I'm more miffed at the "pulled out of her butt" assertion by OCBuckWife that the parents were somehow the problem here because these four kids were traveling alone.

Well to be fair given the story regarding her parents it's perfectly understandable.


The truth is that we have no idea what the real particulars behind the story are. Each side is going to tell the version that paints themselves in the most sympathetic light. The trust is likely somewhere in between.

For all we know the kid really did steal the iPod and were just covering their behinds by claiming they were returning it. It wouldn't be the first time a parent blindly defended their child regardless of the facts...

Just like most half-assed stories fed to us by the media, folks are going to project their own views onto the situation whether it's really warranted or not.

 

[OCBuckWife]

I don't see how your experience travelling abroad alone at the age of 9 has any relevance to the issue of four teenagers travelling together to Arizona from California.

You don't see the relevance of a personal experience of a child traveling alone to the subject of children traveling alone? That confuses me.

If these kids had made this trip several times in the past without incident, and this happened to them, as a parent, I'd be livid.

If the kids had made the trip several times without incident, yes a parent would have a right to be livid. We don't know that they did. It could just have easily been a first time. We also don't know how those kids reacted, they could have kicked the conductor in the shins for all we know. Arguing about what could have been or might have happened seems to be a fools errand to me. Using that form of discussion both of us could argue until the cows come home and get nowhere. Simply put, we have no idea what really happened on that train. And that is not what we were discussing, we were discussing the idea, good or bad, of minors traveling alone, were we not?

Hell, just knowing my own children, if it was their first trip and they were dumped to the cops 600 miles from home for an alleged crime on the single word of another kid, I'd be furious.

Using your own statement, if I was a parent and my kid's iPod got (allegedly) stolen (my kid said it did, and I believe him/her) and NOTHING was done about it, I would be furious.

The conductor had no right to treat this kids as criminals without just cause.

How did the conductor treat them as criminals? The tone of the article makes it seem like it but we don't know that is the truth. It's subjective information, as Deety pointed out. However, in my reading it, and having been on Amtrak and had friends kicked off, it also reads as an employee just getting rid of a problem he didn't want and shouldn't have been expected to deal with. Callous yes. But not exactly treating kids as criminals. More as a problem that belongs to other people, parents for example. The authorities were not called out for the alleged theft, they were called out to accompany the kids, since they were traveling alone as minors.

I guess I'm more miffed at the "pulled out of her butt" assertion by OCBuckWife that the parents were somehow the problem here because these four kids were traveling alone. Its the kind ignorant assumption that I would expect from someone who essentially just a child themself.

Just because I disagree with you on this subject doesn't seem to merit the anger you appear to have toward me personally. I debate for fun and entertainment and to possibly learn something new. This doesn't seem to be happening between us in this thread, in fact you have devolved to a kind of name calling. If this were happening face to face now would be the time for me to walk away from the discussion and perhaps return to it later since nothing constructive is going to happen from here on out without a break. Therefore I will do the same in the thread.

 

[gregorylee]

No matter what, IMO even if the kid did swipe the iPod, putting them off the train 600 miles from home is over the top. Restricting them to their cabin/seats (obviously excepting meals and RR breaks) would have been much more appropriate. Allow the parent's of the other child to proceed with charges if they so chose. Personally, I would have had someones ass over this.

 

[Taosman]

iPod derails Taos teens?train trip
By Andy Dennison
The Taos News
What began as a boring train ride home to New Mexico turned into a frightening, confusing experience for a quartet of Taos youngsters last week­end.
Along the way, an iPod was missing, Amtrak likely violated its own policies, and a pair of angry parents had to drive to Kingman, Ariz., and back.
In addition, a Taos attorney is leaf­ing through law books to find a way to sue Amtrak officials, who abruptly stopped saying anything to the press after turning the case over to Amtrak?s internal investigators.
?They (Amtrak conductors) were determined to get us off the train,? said 15-year-old Carley Maestas, the oldest of the four who were returning from a six-week stay at her mother?s home in Fresno, Calif. ?I asked the conductor, ?What are we supposed to do?? He just said, ?I don?t care.? ? According to interviews with the persons involved, the unsettling inci­dent began Saturday (July 21) when one passenger accused 13-year-old Zackary Sharfin of stealing her iPod portable music player, and another said he took her cell phone and inap&shyropriately touched her daughter.
Zackary Sharfin denied stealing either item, saying only he found the iPod and intended to return it.
A Kingman police report indicates that two passengers from Lubbock, Texas, separately accused Zackary Sharfin of stealing and ?touching? a child somewhere between Needles, Calif., and Kingman. Even though the alleged crime occurred in Mojave County, Ariz., only Kingman police wrote a report on the incident.
A spokesperson for the Mojave County Sheriff?s Department said Wednesday (July 25) that no report had been taken on the incident, and no charges will be filed.
?When we got there, there was no train, no witnesses, no subject, no victims,? said spokeswoman Trish

Way over reaction. They're just kids for kris-sake!
Sue Amtrak. :(

 

[BuckWrestler141]

I don't see how this is an overreaction. If a child stole something and even worse (why are people talking about the ipod..ah yes to make it seem more ridiculous and more newsworthy) touched someone in appropriately you get them off that train. If it is an adult you simply kick them off, but since it was children AMTRAK it sounds like went above and beyond by making sure the children were sent to a police station where they were supervised the entire time.

Steal a cellphone, touch someone, and steal an ipod; not just 'kicked off for stealing an ipod' that I keep hearing. I doubt those three events happened at the exact same time, so i'm going to assume that the kids were as someone said suggested to sit in a spot and not move. But when you get multiple kids together it doesn't always work out that way. If you've been accused of these things and you think 'they just want you off the train' then you sit down and you shut up not be in the gameroom where you allegedly FIND the ipod and are going to return it. I know there are a lot of protective parents in here and I can't imagine any of you wanting them on the train if they touch your daughter and steal her ipod all while being there under no supervision. We will need some details first since we are only hearing one side of the story, but as of now I think Amtrak did the right thing. If they get sued by this family the only thing that will come from it is likely a ban on anyone traveling without proper supervision who is under 18, because from what i've read they do not deserve to be sued.

 

[scooter1369]

I don't see how this is an overreaction. If a child stole something and even worse (why are people talking about the ipod..ah yes to make it seem more ridiculous and more newsworthy) touched someone in appropriately you get them off that train. If it is an adult you simply kick them off, but since it was children AMTRAK it sounds like went above and beyond by making sure the children were sent to a police station where they were supervised the entire time.

Steal a cellphone, touch someone, and steal an ipod; not just 'kicked off for stealing an ipod' that I keep hearing. I doubt those three events happened at the exact same time, so i'm going to assume that the kids were as someone said suggested to sit in a spot and not move. But when you get multiple kids together it doesn't always work out that way. If you've been accused of these things and you think 'they just want you off the train' then you sit down and you shut up not be in the gameroom where you allegedly FIND the ipod and are going to return it. I know there are a lot of protective parents in here and I can't imagine any of you wanting them on the train if they touch your daughter and steal her ipod all while being there under no supervision. We will need some details first since we are only hearing one side of the story, but as of now I think Amtrak did the right thing. If they get sued by this family the only thing that will come from it is likely a ban on anyone traveling without proper supervision who is under 18, because from what i've read they do not deserve to be sued.

I am a parent of two girls. The funny part about this is that you have already convicted the kids on the word of a fucking child. I'm guessing the brat lost it and made up the story that it was "stolen" to cover her ass and mommy would just buy her a new one.

Its also amusing that the story changed from "stole my iPod" to "stole my iPod, a cell phone and he touched me where the baby sitter touches daddy" as soon as this shit storm kicked up.

 

[BuckWrestler141]

I am a parent of two girls. The funny part about this is that you have already convicted the kids on the word of a fucking child. I'm guessing the brat lost it and made up the story that it was "stolen" to cover her ass and mommy would just buy her a new one.

Its also amusing that the story changed from "stole my iPod" to "stole my iPod, a cell phone and he touched me where the baby sitter touches daddy" as soon as this shit storm kicked up.

No i'm taking the word of a child and potentially that childs parent. In addition, i'm taking the view that an amtrak employee wouldn't kick someone out unless they had reason besides a he-said-she-said. Either way, you are taking the word of a 'fucking child' who says he found and was going to return an ipod. Neither of us have enough details at this time to be upset enough to be throwing around the f-bomb. I might be taking amtrak's side too strongly, but that is just out of backlash as a the result of people saying they should be sued.

As far as the 'new' allegations, you are right it is amusing, but I honestly wouldn't be suprised if it has to do with 1. rushing a story and possibly 2. If you leave out the rest of the story and leave it at just IPOD it is going to gather a lot more debate and discussion.

Oh well, i'm done 'argueing' for the day, it is Friday and more importantly the Bucks landed my top recruit, Garrett Goebel today, so nothing else really matters to me