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Florida to Link Teacher Pay To Students' Test Scores

better get a job in a district where the parents really care (as well as the students)... Teachers in general are under paid, Florida really under pays (I've heard of teachers in the Coco Beach area with 20 years in the district along with a masters degree making under $30k)... what a bad joke....
 
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Gov. Jeb Bush (R) has characterized the new policy, which bases a teacher's pay on improvements in test scores, as a matter of common sense, asking, "What's wrong about paying good teachers more for doing a better job?"

How is this family still holding office anywhere? They show their ignorance every time they open their mouths. How can a teacher be held accountable if a student just doesn't want to learn. Are the teachers allowed to remove any students that just aren't that smart? This is the stupidest thing I have heard in a long time and it's actually going to be in place next year. I think we should hold a vote to see if the state of Florida should even be in the Union any longer. Needless to say I'm never much amazed about crap that comes out of Florida. Present company excluded of course. :biggrin:
 
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what? no six sigma quality standard? cause as we all know educating a human being is exactly the same as building say a car on an assembly line. progress is easily recorded and measured. not only that, but like every single hunk of metal sent through the line. each individual chilid is exactly the same and requires exactly the same amount of mesuarable effort and instruction to become a perfect end product.

its amazing to me how ingnorant and out of touch our lawmakers are. not just florida, but across the country from top to bottom.
 
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what? no six sigma quality standard? cause as we all know educating a human being is exactly the same as building say a car on an assembly line. progress is easily recorded and measured. not only that, but like every single hunk of metal sent through the line. each individual chilid is exactly the same and requires exactly the same amount of mesuarable effort and instruction to become a perfect end product.

its amazing to me how ingnorant and out of touch our lawmakers are. not just florida, but across the country from top to bottom.
No black belts, sorry. We prefer TQM in Florida
 
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its amazing to me how ingnorant and out of touch our lawmakers are. not just florida, but across the country from top to bottom.

They're actually not out of touch. They're too in touch and unable to think critically for themselves in many cases. "We" push for this kind of idiocy and they give "us" what they think we want. Education is getting crushed by a combination of traditional paranoid anti-intellectualism from the right and mush-headed morally relativistic p.c. nonsense from the left. I really feel sorry for the kids, and the sad thing is that it's been going on long enough that many of teachers haven't received any real education either. I try to think that the good old days weren't always good and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems, but I really think this country has shot its wad.
 
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Our schools are performing terribly.
What do you suggest?
Ignore the pay for performance or improve on it if you like.
The way this scheme is laid out, Florida will have more kids receiving inflated scores, more kids taught to the test, instead of educated to actually use their minds. This remedy codifies an incorrect choice to solve the underlying problem. The fruits of this mistaken approach to improving the quality of the educational system pass through our workplaces on a regular basis. In my experience it is too often the case that applicants with good paper qualifications try to gain employment, only to be thrown during interview by the simplest of questions requiring the ability to demonstrate understanding of a concept critical to your business. (Which in my case is a scientific and technical enterprise). My assessment is that these individuals have been taught to the test, rather than taught to learn and use their minds. For example, they may know the equation for pH, but have absolutely no notion of what the -ve Log of Hydrogen Ion Concentration really means. Such lack of understanding of a basic concept put into practice would have dire consequences.

You ask "What do you suggest?" That is a fair question, though in part you are asking this from a position that improving on pay for performance remains a viable option to overcome the intrinsic frailties of the existing system. "Ignore the pay for performance or improve on it if you like." I am not going to pretend to have all the answers, I'll gladly share my perspective.

I'll go with tossing pay for performance into the trash can of history, hopefully before it does more damage than the already too great reliance on standardized testing (to which the teacher's performance will increasingly be linked).

From my perspective improving on pay for performance blesses a premise which is seriously flawed. In my view these are mere symptomatic relief, adopted in lieu of a more challenging, demanding, and politically unpopular solution. A solution that would raise the value of our graduated students.

So - let us go back to very beginning of the debate on education if you will. Before any child was left behind, before numeric metrics from standardized tests of student attainment became the crutch on which politicians, teachers and school administrators all leant. Let's do that with a clean slate, an open mind and a determination to find solutions, not palliatives. Part of that approach must be to define correctly the role of schools, and of educators. Also, the use of standardized test and their value, however large or limited, should be agreed upon and universally understood.

Here is my short list of the role of schools - what they should do ...
  • Teach kids reading, writing and arithmetic (the core skills)
  • Teach students the lexicon of the world in which they will live in its diverse forms and disciplines (the nomenclature of our lives)
  • Once the above is done every effort should be devoted to teaching kids to think, learning to learn, think and to apply that gift between their ears to problems
How then do we determine if the schools are living up to the above goals? Are standardized tests part of that determination? In my view, yes, but with a rather strict reservation. Standardized tests are useful most to a teacher when addressing the first two aspects of the school's role. They can help a teacher determine the degree to which a student has learnt the core skills and lexicon - which can can lead to better structure and approach to bring students, whose lexical or core skills are lacking, up to expectations.

In truth, the better measure of a student's aptitude is their ability to apply the concepts they have learnt and understood to new problems. Not the ones "from the book." This leans more closely to what are termed portfolio or proficiency tests. Problems demanding understanding of core concepts are placed in front of a student, their ability to find their way to a (or the) solution is not measured on a yes/no or one of A, B, C, or D basis. Think more in terms of a project, or an essay, than a multiple choice test. LINK

In short, I would give my approval only to an approach that totally rethinks our children's needs, those of the teachers and those of society. An approach which seeks to have students demonstrate how they think in equal or greater measure than simple rote recitation of disparate factoids, book problems, or lexical terms.
 
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What makes you think that this is not the true reason behind the move?

Teacher unions and liberals have been working to block the privatization of K-12 eduction for decades now...ever since people started listening to Friedman's voucher plan. It doesn't matter that the general public, when explained how the voucher system acutally works, supports the idea or that those families who have been allowed to participate in pilot programs like the ones in Milwaukee and Cleveland loved the program. Instead, teacher unions and liberals have decided to protect their own spheres of influence and opposed these measures every step of the way.

So what did Republicans do in response? They moved to standardized testing as a means to attack the failures of the public school system. Now I do believe many of my fellow Republicans are misguided on this issue, as it is a horrible idea if the goal is to improve the education system, but it does create a favorable by-product for those of us who favor the privatization of education...the desire of parents to move their children out of public schools and into private school systems.

Many education finance researchers are now stating that education in the United States will be privatized within the next 35-50 years. I tend to agree with these people and see moves like this, while misguided and detrimental to the short term, being a great advantage in the long term.
So this is an "end justifies the means" thing? Having a generation of poorly educated Florida kids (and by poorly educated I mean worse than it already is, so possibly very poorly) just to get to privatization seems like a poor trade.
 
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