• Follow us on Twitter @buckeyeplanet and @bp_recruiting, like us on Facebook! Enjoy a post or article, recommend it to others! BP is only as strong as its community, and we only promote by word of mouth, so share away!
  • Consider registering! Fewer and higher quality ads, no emails you don't want, access to all the forums, download game torrents, private messages, polls, Sportsbook, etc. Even if you just want to lurk, there are a lot of good reasons to register!
OH10;1618448; said:
Wow. I have to simply disagree as vehemently as I can with that assessment. There is absolutely no way I would ever see that as a "great" thing about college football.

I think its a poor roundabout excuse to avoid progress.

That's fine. I think an argument for a playoff aims to water down college football for the simplistic reason that "everybody else is doing it." Both of us are entitled to our opinions, and the great thing about college football is how passionate and varied its fans' opinions are. And frankly, no matter how eloquent or common-sensical we state these opinions here, it will make no difference as to whether a playoff is ever instituted. So try not to get too vehement about it. :)
 
Upvote 0
Playoffs losing support, Gee says
Thursday, December 24, 2009
By Tim May
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

College football fans hoping for a playoff system haven't been paying attention. It won't be coming any time soon as long as Ohio State president E. Gordon Gee is among those watching the situation.

The Bowl Championship Series, in which the top two teams play for the national title, is more than adequate, Gee said. He reiterated his stance from a year ago, that an expanded playoff would have to be pried from his cold, dead hands.

"It has solidified," he said of that stance as he looked forward to watching Ohio State play Oregon on Jan. 1 in the Rose Bowl. "My hands have gotten colder."

Call him the Grinch if you're a progressive, or the man who saved Chirstmas, if you're a traditionalist. But he said he is not a lone wolf.

"I can assure you there is no support among the college presidents in this country for a BCS playoff system," Gee said. "Furthermore, if anything there is a move back to (further embracing) the bowl system. So I would have to say that (the thought of an extended playoff) is losing support among college presidents."

Playoffs losing support, Gee says | BuckeyeXtra
 
Upvote 0
The Big12 and Big East commissioners have both said recently that we're closer to going back to the old bowl system than we are to going to a playoff system. Dan Beebe, the Big 12 commish, specifically mentioned the whining of all the people that haven't committed the resources to college football as one of the major reasons for scrapping the BCS, once the contract is up, and going back to the old system.

Unless congress tries to step in and do something (which is ridiculous), I don't see a college football playoff coming to the FBS anytime soon, i.e. the next 10-20 years. Because it simply doesn't have any support amongst the people that really matter, and that's the big conference presidents and commissioners.
 
Upvote 0
Poll shows fans want to dump Bowl Championship Series, get playoff - ESPN

I think this resonates the general feelings fans have about the subject. Basically, Congress intervening is a bad thing but some probably think it is a necessity. The fans want a playoff, but too much money is being made for them to give up the current system willingly.

We'll see if the bill in the house gains any traction and if the senate follows suit. While I would love to see the playoff implemented, it would be a dark day for college football if it were mandated to change by the government.

Trying to play Devil's advocate:

How does the current BCS system not fit as an example of violation of anti-trust? I can see why some think the government may have to step in, even if I don't agree with it.
 
Upvote 0
kn1f3party;1627559; said:
Trying to play Devil's advocate:

How does the current BCS system not fit as an example of violation of anti-trust? I can see why some think the government may have to step in, even if I don't agree with it.

Well, first off, it doesn't make any difference what fans "want" if you're going to start talking about antitrust law (not that you were saying that was so, just that you quoted a poll that is based on fan desires)

Second off, I'm not even sure how to conceptualize a playoff v. the BCS in terms of monopoly here... I mean, you've got playoffs in other college football leagues (FCS, D-II, D-III) for example.. Of course, those are under the NCAA umbrella... as such... if someone really wants to play in a league with a playoff, they have such an option available to them.

Third, a Section 1 Sherman Violation requires:

  1. An agreement
  2. which unreasonably restrains competition
  3. and which affects interstate commerce.
I suppose the BCS agreement could be "unreasonable" but, it does now give all teams a shot at the apple (even if not really doing so) when they gave the non BCS conf. teams an assured way to get a team in. But, that said, there is no MWC or Sunbelt guarantee where there is a Pac10 or SEC or B10 guarantee so.... it could still be "unreasonable" I suppose. But, that's when viewing it within itself.... again, the NCAA doesn't crown a D-I champ.. as a consequence, the NCAA itself is a competitor (by the existence of the levels in which it does crown a champion) with the BCS... since there is not a monopoly, I don't know that antitrust laws even apply.

All that said, the last time I looked at anti trust law, I was a 3rd year law student... I can't pretend to remember a whole lot about the particulars.
 
Upvote 0
I probably should have quoted some of the article to clarify. The article goes on to explain the house is moving forward with a bill that would restrict the FBS from crowning a national champion through any avenue without it being the result of a playoff. It also explains how, while the majority of respondants prefer a playoff, responses were mixed on whether government intervention is acceptable.

In terms of anti-trust, I think an argument can be made that the current system fits the criteria. I won't even pretend to have any legal background to reinforce this. I will say, however, the longer the current system exists the more I realize it will not be able to continue to sustain itself. It is viewed as a failed system in a large number of people's eyes even if a non-BCS school does make it to the top two.
 
Upvote 0
kn1f3party;1628336; said:
In terms of anti-trust, I think an argument can be made that the current system fits the criteria. I won't even pretend to have any legal background to reinforce this. I will say, however, the longer the current system exists the more I realize it will not be able to continue to sustain itself. It is viewed as a failed system in a large number of people's eyes even if a non-BCS school does make it to the top two.
What definition are you giving to the words "restrains competition?"
 
Upvote 0
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1628448; said:
What definition are you giving to the words "restrains competition?"

I don't have a grand conspiracy theory suggesting it is virtually impossible barring absolutely abysmal seasons by BCS schools and perfect seasons by non-BCS schools to obtain a position in the top 2--but lets face it: do they really have a chance?

Seasons like the ones TCU and Boise State had this year don't come around every year and it isn't likely they will get any higher profile teams willing to schedule them to boost their credibility. They're effectively restrained from competing for a national championship in my eyes.

My observation of the BCS being viewed as a failure if a non-BCS school made the top two was completely hypothetical and in my eyes has as much probability as Tressel being fired for waterboarding players for lack of effort.
 
Upvote 0
kn1f3party;1628610; said:
I don't have a grand conspiracy theory suggesting it is virtually impossible barring absolutely abysmal seasons by BCS schools and perfect seasons by non-BCS schools to obtain a position in the top 2--but lets face it: do they really have a chance?
I agree with you, they don't really have a "real" chance. Of course, despite getting an invite to the "big dance" no 16 seed has a real chance either... playoffs aren't a guarantee, is all I'm saying.

Seasons like the ones TCU and Boise State had this year don't come around every year and it isn't likely they will get any higher profile teams willing to schedule them to boost their credibility. They're effectively restrained from competing for a national championship in my eyes.

This is what I feared you did mean by "restraining competition" Restraining competition has nothing to do with fairness on the field, it only contemplates effect on the free trade. The BCS might be better or worse than a Playoff in terms of free trade, but it's hard to say that the BCS contract is an unreasonable restraint. Lots of people are making lots of money... lots of people are spending lots of money....

Like I said above, I'm not a legal authority on matter Anti-trust, but the notion strikes me - gut instinct - as barking up the wrong tree.
 
Upvote 0
Not that we actually enforce anti-trust laws anymore, but this article actually does a decent job of laying out the anti-trust claims against the BCS in simple terms, as I understand them to be theorized, post-2005 format changes:

That said, it's pretty clear that (this year, at least) Utah got shafted. And Shurtleff's case doesn't seem to be facially frivolous. In 1984, the Supreme Court ruled in NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma that the Sherman Act applies to the NCAA. The BCS, like the TV agreement at issue in that case, uses anti-competitive practices to benefit its members. As sports law expert Martin Edel explains to the Wall Street Journal's Dan Slater, to prevail in a lawsuit Utah (or any other plaintiff) would have to win a balancing test--that is, by showing that the anti-competitive effects of the BCS outweigh its pro-competitive effects. (So, luckily for sports talk radio, on this question, any college football fan is essentially qualified to offer relevant legal analysis.)

There is an argument that can be made in this vein against the BCS--but the problem for Utah is that it doesn't happen to correspond to their particular grievance this year. Utah's current beef is that it was excluded from the national championship game despite its undefeated record. But, critically, in the context of the national championship game, the BCS doesn't discriminate against Utah or other members of non-BCS conferences. The national championship game matches the top two teams in the country, regardless of what conference they come from. (Granted, because of the objectively weaker schedules they play, it's practically impossible for non-BCS schools to make the national championship game--but that's not because the BCS discriminates against non-BCS schools as such.) Consequently, as SMU law professor C. Paul Rogers III noted in a 2008 article in the Marquette Sports Law Review (not available on the web, as far as I can tell), it's unlikely a plaintiff could demonstrate that the BCS's conduct (as opposed to the conference structure of college football more generally) serves to exclude non-BCS schools from the championship game, which would be required under the Sherman Act.

Where the BCS might have an antitrust problem is when it comes to the four non-championship BCS games (the Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, and Orange Bowls). It's in that context that the BCS is discriminatory: non-BCS schools must be ranked in the top twelve in order to earn a bid to one of those bowls, while the champion of each BCS conference gets a bid automatically, regardless of how bad they are. In 2004, for instance, an undeserving Pitt team received a bid to the Fiesta Bowl despite being ranked 21st in the nation.

This arrangement would presumably violate the Sherman Act if a court were to deem its anti-competitive effects to outweigh its pro-competitive effects. There's a strong case to be made that the BCS as originally conceived in 1998 had such strong anti-competitive effects as to run afoul of the Sherman Act. But when the BCS was modified in 2005 (in large part, as a response to the threat of an antitrust suit on the part of non-BCS schools), it made it much easier for non-BCS schools to qualify for BCS games, evidenced by the appearance of Boise State in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl, Hawaii in the 2008 Sugar Bowl, and Utah in the 2009 Sugar Bowl. Is it really that much harder for an outstanding team from a non-BCS conference to earn a trip to a BCS bowl, compared to an equally good team from a BCS conference? Probably not. So it would seemingly still be difficult to demonstrate that the BCS, as currently constituted, violates the Sherman Act.

That's not to say it can't be done. Over the long haul, the BCS certainly disadvantages members of non-BCS conferences by denying them access to BCS revenue year in and year out, which flows to all members of BCS conferences, even bad teams. Whether that's sufficient to outweigh the benefits of the BCS--and precisely what those benefits are--is open to debate. But it's very hard to see how Utah's (entirely valid) grievance this year, concerning the national championship game, could possibly be remedied by antitrust law. If the federal government is going to use its leverage to force college football to adopt a playoff system, it's going to have to be through new legislation, not an existing statute.

The Problem With Utah's Bcs Antitrust Claim | The New Republic

Also worth reading if you're interested in the subject (though I think this article could do a better job of laying out the relevant law, especially given that it is written by and apparently targets attorneys):

http://law.rwu.edu/admin/uploads/bcs.pdf
 
Upvote 0
sepia5;1618546; said:
Sure, there's always going to be a degree of abitrariness in any system, but the point is that a playoff would result in a less arbitrary process. I've made this point before in similar discussions with BKB, but, IMO, there's just no question that this is the case.

Example. Suppose we have an 8-team playoff. You're saying it's arbitrary to leave out the 9th team and include the 8th team, and I agree that there is going to be some degree of arbitrariness there. But currently we're talking about leaving out the 3rd, 4th, and 5th teams. Those teams may, in any given year, have gone undefeated, perhaps even in a BCS conference.
No, it's not just leaving out the 9-seed that is arbitrary. It's including the 8-seed that is arbitrary, when the 8-seed did not have as strong a regular season as the 1 and 2 seeds (as is the case every single year). How is it "more fair" to give a 2 or 3 loss eight seed a roughly equivalent shot at winning a national title as a no-loss one or two seed? They might "prove it on the field" in January, but the proved they opposite in September through November.

5 undefeated BCS teams? In 11 years, it's happened once that there were more than two. There will never be 5; likely there will never be 4. Any way you slice it, you're talking about giving teams that lost (in many cases, more than once) a roughly equal chance as that of teams that did not lose at all. That is arbitrary, and unfair. Any system has elements that are arbitrary and unfair.

And yeah, the NCAA MBB tournament is lots of fun. You know what's not lots of fun (or more specifically, what few people give a rat's ass about)? NCAA MBB in December. The March tournament makes much of the regular season only marginally important. In college football, right now, every game is critical. That won't be the case if you play-off-o-philes have your way. It ain't more fair, and while it perhaps makes the end-of-season more interesting, it makes the early season less so to a far larger extent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
zincfinger;1688322; said:
5 undefeated BCS teams? In 11 years, it's happened once that there were more than two. There will never be 5; likely there will never be 4. Any way you slice it, you're talking about giving teams that lost (in many cases, more than once) a roughly equal chance as that of teams that did not lose at all. That is arbitrary, and unfair. Any system has elements that are arbitrary and unfair.

Alabama, Texas, Boise State, TCU, Cincinnati.
 
Upvote 0
Back
Top