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Big Ten Conference Divisions

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BB73;1755250; said:
In response to the previous post by SloopyHangOn:

tOSU fans wishing to preserve The Game at the end of the season and in the same division aren't trying to be "kings of a garbage dump". Your own testing of the model indicates that the highest score on rivalries overall occurs with tOSU and TSUN in the same division.

So I don't see how retaining the best rivalry in the conference damages any of the others that exist. I don't believe the Iron Bowl (the SEC's most intense rivalry) being a season-ending intra-divisional game has a negative effect on TWLOCP.

Furthermore, I believe that retaining The Game in the same division as the season-ender will benefit the entire conference; or at least minimize any damage over time that non-optimal divisional alignment could cause over time. I've talked about why in posts 318 and 341 of this thread. I believe that retaining The Game as close to possible to its current existence helps the overall prestige and long-term financial situation of the entire Big Ten.
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I agree with this 100%
 
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If you don't want to do it based on geography here is the best compromise to preserve the most rivalries.

Div A
Ohio State
Michigan
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern

Div B
Iowa
Nebraska
Penn State
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue

Ohio State/Michigan
Minnesota/Wisconsin
Illinois/Northwestern

Iowa/Nebraska
Michigan State/Penn State
Indiana/Purdue

Save rivalries (create a new one for Iowa/Nebraska) and the competitive balance is perfect. Of course Joe Pa and Penn State will whine since they hate their land grant deal with MSU. But you need a rival for Iowa since they are losing both Minnesota and Wisconsin.

Plus Penn State gets three rivals with MSU, their history with Nebraska and their developing rivalry with Iowa. They also get extra home games since Indiana is willing to sell them home games!
 
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Just e-mailed Delany, Gee and Gene Smith yesterday about keeping Ohio State-Michigan at the end of the year; I recieved a reply from Smith within a few minutes surprisingly.

Hopefully they are listening (at least a little bit) to the fans. I know Delany is cutthroat and innovative, but he'd be crazy to just trust these decisions to marketing and analysts who are paid to stir things up, not maintain the status-quo. Honestly, you don't contract a research firm to come back with decisions like "let's keep almost everything the same in this new and expanded Big-Ten". Unfortunately for that firm, maybe the status-quo (with exception to getting Nebraska into the conference) is mostly the right and profitable thing to do.

The volatility of their base-market risks so much more money and market-share by drastically altering tradition for the possibility of a few dollars more. Compare it to the status-quo with Nebraska when they know they could maintain dominance in the national-market (but maybe SLIGHTLY fewer and maybe more predictable dollars) if they keep these traditions mostly alive.
 
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BB73;1755250; said:
In response to the previous post by SloopyHangOn:

tOSU fans wishing to preserve The Game at the end of the season and in the same division aren't trying to be "kings of a garbage dump". Your own testing of the model indicates that the highest score on rivalries overall occurs with tOSU and TSUN in the same division.

So I don't see how retaining the best rivalry in the conference damages any of the others that exist. I don't believe the Iron Bowl (the SEC's most intense rivalry) being a season-ending intra-divisional game has a negative effect on TWLOCP.
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I had hoped I had avoided making it seem like this was my point there. What I was saying about being "kings of a garbage heap" was in reference to the care taken for the rest of the programs within the current & future BigTen. I feel like it's grossly misguided to believe that it's always going to be best for the conference to do what is best for Ohio State (or the other conferences marquee programs). If the scenario called for it, my stance is that The Ohio State University and it's fans should be willing to make sacrifices for the greater good of the conference. I don't necessarily believe that this scenario IS such a scenario, but if it WERE that's where I would stand.

BB73;1755250; said:
Furthermore, I believe that retaining The Game in the same division as the season-ender will benefit the entire conference; or at least minimize any damage over time that non-optimal divisional alignment could cause over time. I've talked about why in posts 318 and 341 of this thread. I believe that retaining The Game as close to possible to its current existence helps the overall prestige and long-term financial situation of the entire Big Ten.
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I agree with minimizing the risk. Keeping things the same has the least opportunity to backfire and end up damaging the conference. Stability within any institutions largest benefactors is going to foster the greatest stability for the least of those. However, as I've mentioned, greater risk seems to have the opportunity for greater reward. Of course that's based on pure speculation.
 
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BB73;1755250; said:
In response to the previous post by SloopyHangOn:

tOSU fans wishing to preserve The Game at the end of the season and in the same division aren't trying to be "kings of a garbage dump". Your own testing of the model indicates that the highest score on rivalries overall occurs with tOSU and TSUN in the same division.
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While this is true, in terms of competitiveness and geography that line-up is obviously well below acceptable: C: C (43) & G: C-(35) O: C+ (53). As I'd posted before, the NEXT highest score possible in rivalries that also elicits B's or higher in each of the other two categories is the North/South split: R: A+ (97), C: B+ (74) & G: B (68) O: A- (80).

In the next version of his model, it would be interesting to see how adding 1 protected inter-divisional rivalry per team would pan out. In that case, the split you posted earlier that scored 90 overall could easily score higher than 95 in rivalries. However, the North/South split would probably score close to 100.

In the end, these models mean nothing, but they do shed a little bit of light on what each possibility means.
 
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BB73;1755250; said:
So I don't see how retaining the best rivalry in the conference damages any of the others that exist. I don't believe the Iron Bowl (the SEC's most intense rivalry) being a season-ending intra-divisional game has a negative effect on TWLOCP.

Furthermore, I believe that retaining The Game in the same division as the season-ender will benefit the entire conference; or at least minimize any damage over time that non-optimal divisional alignment could cause over time. I've talked about why in posts 318 and 341 of this thread. I believe that retaining The Game as close to possible to its current existence helps the overall prestige and long-term financial situation of the entire Big Ten.
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This is, I think, absolutely true. While the WLOCP in a two division conference with a championship game is not an exact template for your situation, as we play our game with usually two conference games left, historically, the cock and vandy games left on UF's schedule are not a huge threat to the division championship if we beat the poodles.

Having our game as the last SEC game would be even sweeter, but the winner of the cocktail party is close enough to a division or SEC conference winning requirement that I see a resemblance. Georgia has ruined our season (and undefeated season) several times, and we have returned the favor. Knocking them out in 2002 was - to my mind - a repayment for the favor you did us in our 96 season's MNC run. So saying all that, I can absolutely say that you need to keep in the same division and let the Game be a stepping stone or stone wall to a great season, just like it always has. Now, it will be a path to the Big-10 Championship Game as well, with a BCS or MNC shot in the balance. You do not need to defeat the skunkbears and know that you will meet again in a week or two, with something like the luck of injuries suffered in The Game changing the outcome of the BTCCG in a few weeks when you meet again.

You have to avoid that possibility. I do not see how anyone could advocate being in separate divisions and meet again. Unthinkable!

But that is just from my own perspective with our own version of The Game. I am not looking for a discussion comparing the two, just letting you know that in my mind there is a similar history, and that I know how it feels in the present format, and how it would feel in a separate division, and it would suck horribly.
 
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SloopyHangOn;1755455; said:
Communism, of course.

I don't understand your question.
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My guess as to the question. Why should the university, fans, and alumni allow the greatest rivalry be messed with for the greater good of the conference? And who's to say this would be best for the conference. All most of us know is The Game being the last regular season game (except BB73). The season builds up to the regular season showdown with TTUN. We countdown to TTUN week and hope to hear some good smack talk from the players. We jump in Mirror Lake and hope our balls drop back down. We drink some adult beverages to combat the cold weather. This ain't no cocktail party. It's The Game.

Go Bucks and Save The Game!
 
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If that's the question then I don't have an answer. I can't say for sure whether making that specific sacrifice would be for the greater good of the conference. I'm merely saying that if it were, I would be willing to make that sacrifice in assumption that over the long run it would come back to me tenfold.
 
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No perfect way to split a conference

No perfect way to split a conference

"We are trying to look at competitive equality over time. We're obviously looking at rivalries, no doubt about it, but a little bit of geography," Ohio State's Smith said. "I can't predict how it's going to line up because we're still in the minutiae, but at the end of the day, the kids are going to have great games."
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Prepare for the inevitable, the split is coming "over time".

Like so many other leagues, the Big Ten and Pac-10 are learning they aren't going to be able to address every potential concern.
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Don't mess with tradition and we'll be fine as we identify every "potential concern".

"Either way we go, there's some school _ us, somebody else, somewhere _ it's inevitable (they'll be unhappy) with change," Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith said. "Hopefully we can do everything we can to protect Ohio State's interests in change and we'll do everything we can with that. But at the end of the day, we have to do what's best for the conference."
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We need to adapt to stay current but at what cost? It's the fans of the Game that make it what it is regardless when its played.
 
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SloopyHangOn;1755455; said:
Communism, of course.

I don't understand your question.
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See below.

TDunk;1755479; said:
My guess as to the question. Why should the university, fans, and alumni allow the greatest rivalry be messed with for the greater good of the conference? And who's to say this would be best for the conference. All most of us know is The Game being the last regular season game (except BB73). The season builds up to the regular season showdown with TTUN. We countdown to TTUN week and hope to hear some good smack talk from the players. We jump in Mirror Lake and hope our balls drop back down. We drink some adult beverages to combat the cold weather. This ain't no cocktail party. It's The Game.

Go Bucks and Save The Game!
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It wasn't so much a question of "Why?"

SloopyHangOn;1755516; said:
If that's the question then I don't have an answer. I can't say for sure whether making that specific sacrifice would be for the greater good of the conference. I'm merely saying that if it were, I would be willing to make that sacrifice in assumption that over the long run it would come back to me tenfold.
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I was asking what sort of qualifiers you could enumerate that would establish some sort of "greater good" for the conference as a whole. I was hoping you might have some tangibles. That way, we can establish IF the greater good is 1) actually "greater" and/or "good" as well as 2) to see if it's worth it. The way I see it... for tOSU to give up the beneficial qualities of THE GAME being at the end of the regular season; there ought to be some damn good things occurring for this hypothetical "greater good". Is the conference bringing tenfold (in your terms) the financial amount that it is now? Has our prestige as a conference risen by tenfold? Have the diplomas from the Big Ten increased in value tenfold? These questions are just the tip of the iceburg.
 
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