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2009 Bowl Season (official thread)

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Bucklion;1608859; said:
You can lose in September and make the NC game, but if Alabama loses Saturday they won't. You can say the regular season would be devalued, but I would counter with the fact that it isn't really the "12 week playoff" some want to say it is now, because WHEN you loses counts as much or more as WHO you lose to.
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I agree with you that when you lose should not matter, and I concede that in the current system, unfortunately, it does matter. If they voted the way BB73 does his poll, this would not be a problem, but again - I concede it is a known problem. That said, despite my dislike for the "hot" team, the way the system is set up now does indeed capture some of that. Lose late, and you're out.

Conversely, if Alabama and Florida were both automatic qualifiers, who really cares who wins the SECCG? Bama and Florida fans... Die hard college football fans... but, not the causal observer. Bad for college football in the long run.

NCAA basketball provides a decent way to look at it. I love Buckeye basketball and I watch as many games as I can (unlike football, however, I do not make changes to my schedule to ensure I see each game). But, I don't care about basketball enough to watch Duke - North Carolina or the like. I don't say that to minimize the Duke UNC game - I say it to explain how a casual fan like myself doesn't care about their game. I won't watch it. Now, some people love college basketball and will. No doubt. But, I wonder if more people would watch it if that was the only chance to see those two schools battle. If the results of that game mattered in the long haul. As it is, they both make the Tourney, and I'll watch them then. I like the NCAA basketball Tourney. I watch it and I'm entertained.

But.... I don't really care.

Likewise, if Ohio State was an automatic qualifier for the big ten's bid - as they would have been this season - do we care as much about the Michigan game? Maybe a bad example, because of the history of The Game - but, as time passes, does it lose it's luster? I mean, suppose Tressel decides "We're already in the dance, no sense in playing Pryor and risking an injury" We see this in the NFL all the time... games at the end of the year lose meaning. I don't like it.


Bucklion;1608861; said:
We had no shot of playing for the national title in 1998 despite having like 400 draft picks on that team because we lost one game. Just like the eventual NC did. Many think we were the best team that year. Did the BCS fix that one? I maintain that if it was 2008 and the same teams were where they were, the result would be the same. So to me the BCS doesn't do that either.
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Don't misunderstand - I do NOT argue the BCS is perfect. Nor do I argue that a playoff is illegitimate. I think Ohio State 1998 was probably the best team in the country. I could argue they were the best team in 1996 as well. But, I'm just not sure the benefit of a playoff outweighs the consequences of it. I mean, you don't just invite Ohio State because they "deserve" it and no one else. You have to draw the line somewhere. The BCS draws it at 2 teams.

After 12 games, we all have a pretty good idea as to who "deserves" a chance. Some seasons its 2 teams, others its 3 or 4. But, it's never 8. It's certainly never 16. Nova beat Georgetown in 1985 to win the NC. They were 1-2 against Georgetown that season. They just happened to have won on the last day of the campaign instead of the first. How is that "fair?"

The real problem with a playoff system is that it assumes it has more value than the BCS/polling system. But, no one has ever been able to articulate to me why we should think that. I can live with a playoff in college football, but I don't see the reason to replace one flawed system for the flaws of some other, and at the risk of making college football less interesting week to week. I care about college football all season long, and a playoff won't change that for me. But.. I'm not the casual fan.
 
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Woody1968;1608887; said:
Tennessee won the NC in 1998. They were undefeated. Florida State lost earlier in the season and made it to the NC game, where they lost, partly due to their QB being out due to injury. Most people at the time thought that Ohio State and FSU were the two best teams in the country.

Both Florida (NC winner) and Ohio State lost 1 game in 1996. The same weekend.
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Oops...forgot they were undefeated. The point could still stand about making the title game though.
 
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sepia5;1608884; said:
Well, I think that even using a 13 week season to determine who the best team is lends itself to the problem you're talking about. As Bucklion alluded to, we were probably the best team in the nation in 1998, but we didn't get a shot because on one Saturday late in the season, we got beat by a team team that was clearly not as good the rest of the season (and that's all I'll say about that late-season game). At least with a playoff the teams that have been arguably the best over the course of the season have a chance.

I'm curious how you feel about the baseball playoffs. Now there's a sport where the best team is probably determined during the course of the season, not the playoffs. And yet I can't imagine MLB baseball without playoffs.
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Much of my response would be covered in my post above to BL.

With Baseball, which I was actually thinking about on my way home - I look at it a bit differently. Again, my position is not that a playoff is illegitimate. So, after 162 games, we are able to pick who should get a chance to play for the title. I mean, if you don't know who the competitors are after that many games... well.. I don't know what to say. That said, the third best team in baseball might be left out in any given season because of the way the teams are divided up. It's still not a perfect system.

College football is different. There are 120 teams competing. They can't all play each other and we can't ever know "who deserves it" I mean, if Ohio State played TCU's schedule, or Boise's Schedule.. does that make OSU a better team? If Boise or TCU was made to play Ohio State's schedule.. do they go undefeated? It's not the same.

In any given year, you might have a couple of teams which might be better than 2 other teams which make the NC game. But, like bubble teams in the NCAA - there's a line. You're either over it, or you are not. There's not a lot we can do about it. I suppose I could live with a 4 team playoff, because the difference between 1 and 4 isn't much... but.. the difference between 1 and 8 is... and 1 to 16 is no contest, really. (Baring upsets, of course).
 
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I really don't have problems with current system and the bowl games. I just wouldn't add more bowls. I believe in traditions and college football format. BCS is not perfect but it will do. I just don't like the games to be played beyond Jan 3.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1608892; said:
I agree with you that when you lose should not matter, and I concede that in the current system, unfortunately, it does matter. If they voted the way BB73 does his poll, this would not be a problem, but again - I concede it is a known problem. That said, despite my dislike for the "hot" team, the way the system is set up now does indeed capture some of that. Lose late, and you're out.

Conversely, if Alabama and Florida were both automatic qualifiers, who really cares who wins the SECCG? Bama and Florida fans... Die hard college football fans... but, not the causal observer. Bad for college football in the long run.

NCAA basketball provides a decent way to look at it. I love Buckeye basketball and I watch as many games as I can (unlike football, however, I do not make changes to my schedule to ensure I see each game). But, I don't care about basketball enough to watch Duke - North Carolina or the like. I don't say that to minimize the Duke UNC game - I say it to explain how a casual fan like myself doesn't care about their game. I won't watch it. Now, some people love college basketball and will. No doubt. But, I wonder if more people would watch it if that was the only chance to see those two schools battle. If the results of that game mattered in the long haul. As it is, they both make the Tourney, and I'll watch them then. I like the NCAA basketball Tourney. I watch it and I'm entertained.

But.... I don't really care.

Likewise, if Ohio State was an automatic qualifier for the big ten's bid - as they would have been this season - do we care as much about the Michigan game? Maybe a bad example, because of the history of The Game - but, as time passes, does it lose it's luster? I mean, suppose Tressel decides "We're already in the dance, no sense in playing Pryor and risking an injury" We see this in the NFL all the time... games at the end of the year lose meaning. I don't like it.




Don't misunderstand - I do NOT argue the BCS is perfect. Nor do I argue that a playoff is illegitimate. I think Ohio State 1998 was probably the best team in the country. I could argue they were the best team in 1996 as well. But, I'm just not sure the benefit of a playoff outweighs the consequences of it. I mean, you don't just invite Ohio State because they "deserve" it and no one else. You have to draw the line somewhere. The BCS draws it at 2 teams.

After 12 games, we all have a pretty good idea as to who "deserves" a chance. Some seasons its 2 teams, others its 3 or 4. But, it's never 8. It's certainly never 16. Nova beat Georgetown in 1985 to win the NC. They were 1-2 against Georgetown that season. They just happened to have won on the last day of the campaign instead of the first. How is that "fair?"

The real problem with a playoff system is that it assumes it has more value than the BCS/polling system. But, no one has ever been able to articulate to me why we should think that. I can live with a playoff in college football, but I don't see the reason to replace one flawed system for the flaws of some other, and at the risk of making college football less interesting week to week. I care about college football all season long, and a playoff won't change that for me. But.. I'm not the casual fan.
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I get you, my problem is just that most BCS folks (not you) refuse to admit what the BCS is, and try and act like what it isn't. The BCS was created for a few primary reasons...mostly to due with money, not surprisingly:

1. Placate the Bowls. The major Bowls had some great matchups some years, crappy ones others. A lot of them also didn't like the fact that the same bowls often got the NC game because they didn't have bowl tie-ins, or because teams like Miami were often playing for it and always going to the Orange Bowl. TV money was also not equal. The BCS loosely keeps the bowl tie-ins but also ensures that the NC game rotates, which keeps the bowls happy. The money is equally paid out, which keeps the conferences and schools happy, as well as the bowls, who all get their piece of one central NCS revenue, based on contracts negotiated as an entity.

2. Speaking of tie-ins, it (supposedly) placates the fans and the schools by preventing 1994 again. 1994 happened because 2 bowls with tie-ins ensured that the 2 best, 2 undefeated teams had absolutely no chance of playing. The BCS eliminates that by eliminating the strict bowl tie-ins, at least inasmuch as 1 vs. 2.

3. It prevented any of the "Big 6" conferences from being left out, which at the time was sufficient because teams from the other conferences weren't afforded the respect they are now. They were all part of the puzzle, with equal money to be paid out to the teams and conferences, which is pretty much all the ADs and especially university presidents care about.

That's it. That's all the BCS was designed to do, and 12 or whatever years later, that's all it still does. If there are 2 undefeated teams, they can play, and one of the bowls cashes in huge. Likewise, 8-4 Pitt can still play 9-3 Virginia Tech, or something like that. That bowl sucks, but everyone still gets a piece of the $ pie because it is all one big happy BCS family now. That's still all it does. If people are happy with that, so be it. I happen to think that 8 teams having a shot at a NC if there is one undefeated team and 5 one loss teams going in is preferable, rather than an arbitrary decision being made over who is "most deserving" amongst the one loss teams. OK, I know, so that leaves 2 spots left for 2 loss teams...that's arbitrary too. Sure. But I feel better telling a team "Hey, you want a NC? Don't lose more than one game then" than telling a team "Sorry, they lost in September, you just lost to #1 in the conference championship game, you are SOL". But maybe that's just me.
 
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Suppose there was a playoff this year, that included all the conference champions plus whoever. Now suppose Nebraska beats Texas in the Big 12 championship, gets hot or lucky and wins the playoff. Does anyone think Nebraska is the best team in College Football this year?
 
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I suppose, BL, some of my feelings about this is born of the fact that I am old enough to remember when a National Championship was a big deal, but not winning didn't mean your season was a failure. I mean, the bowls started as a reward for a great season, and somewhere in my mind I still believe that on some level. The BCS, while being those things you mention, also does give the fans a championship game which is just as legitimate as any that a playoff might generate. So, in this regard, to me - it kills two birds with one stone - even if there is the financial aspect which I don't really care about.

As for the "respected" mid major.... eh... It's no secret that they have yet to win me over. I'm willing to kick out some bad BCS teams for some good Mid Major teams, but... eh... play someone. I don't feel sorry for 2004 Auburn, and I sure as shit don't weep over TCU, Boise State or Utah. You want in - man up and play a schedule that earns you the right.

Woody - A great point. That's the problem I have with Conf. Basketball Tourneys. If the last place team somehow wins, all of a sudden a team which otherwise could have been in, is now out. It's, I suppose, interesting for the last place team to still "be alive" once the Conf. Tourney starts... but.. it's hardly "fair" to anyone on the bubble.
 
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Everyone talks about the games not mattering. Like OSU/Mich not mattering this year if the Big Ten gets an auto qualifier. There is an easy way to make it matter. Home field advantage in the playoffs. 16 teams...either do just the top 16, or do conference winners, whichever you see fit. I think if you just use the top 16, that everyone has a shot. If you are good enough to win the NC, and in a smaller conference, then you will crack the top 16. The top seed gets a home game for the first 2 rounds. Then the final four is at a neutral site. Make the final four part of the bowls, or don't. Whichever you like.

So Ohio State is #8 in the BCS right now. We'd get a home game vs. #9 which is Iowa as it stood right now. Had we lost to Michigan, we likely would be playing a road game at Florida or Alabama or nowhere at all. Michigan game would have been HUGE. The way it is NOW, it meant very little. Name a year where the Michigan game would have meant nothing in this system? Maybe 2006, but even then, it still would have huge, just because of what would be at stake by winning the Big Ten and being undefeated. A perfect season is always special.
 
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Look at these match-ups:

Oregon State @ Florida
Pitt @ Alabama
BYU @ Texas
LSU @ TCU
VTech @ Cincy
Penn State @ Boise State
Georgia Tech @ Oregon
Iowa @ Ohio State

I as a college football fan would salivate over those match-ups. And they would probably lead to a second week of...

Ohio State @ Florida
Oregon @ Alabama
Boise State @ Texas
Virgina Tech @ TCU

How sick would that be? I'd love to see the Buckeyes go play at the swamp. I know things will change after next week. But come on...this would be awesome. And you can't tell me the regular season games wouldn't have mattered. Oklahoma losing just knocked OkieState out of it. Cincy vs. Pitt would be huge for both schools. Same with Oregon State/Oregon...HUGE!!! Ohio State's last 3 games would have been even BIGGER! Florida/Alabama may be for a second round home game. So yeah, maybe Florida Alabama isn't as big as it was, but most other games get bigger, and you also have 15 playoff games that would be bigger than anything a regular season can offer now.

You could still have the regular bowl games. You could even say that the losers in the first two rounds still go to another bowl. Why not? Those bowl games are already consolations prizes, so just keep them that way.
 
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JXC;1609079; said:
We'd get a home game vs. #9 which is Iowa as it stood right now. Had we lost to Michigan, we likely would be playing a road game at Florida or Alabama or nowhere at all. Michigan game would have been HUGE. The way it is NOW, it meant very little. Name a year where the Michigan game would have meant nothing in this system? Maybe 2006, but even then, it still would have huge, just because of what would be at stake by winning the Big Ten and being undefeated. A perfect season is always special.
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Except that Michigan, with no hope of making the playoffs, would have more incentive to play people who are going to start next year, so that they can get some game experience.
 
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Why do I have to accept the 16th team in the nation having a shot at the title? Oregon State (BCS 16) is a good team, but they're not anywhere in the conversation.

As far as conference champs go, the Big Boys schedule Sun Belt Champ Troy, for example, as a "gimme" win. Now you want to let them get a crack at the NC? No thanks.

Ohio State is supposed to play Penn State again? I thought that was already settled.

I don't mean to minimize home field advantage, but that hardly addresses the casual fan. What do they care who plays at home. Ohio State and Michigan fans will always care about the game, but when Ohio State is 10-1 and Michigan 3-8, no one is tuning in to see if the Buckeyes keep home field advantage. They have this sort of scenario in the NFL, and I can honestly say I have never once tuned in to a game for this reason.

You may have a point about motivation for the players, though I'm dubious how strong a draw home field advantage would be in terms of being "up" for a game. But, CFB is also business... The current system keeps people interested. Home field advantage doesn't put buts in seats or turn TV sets on.
 
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JXC;1609092; said:
Look at these match-ups:

Oregon State @ Florida
Pitt @ Alabama
BYU @ Texas
LSU @ TCU
VTech @ Cincy
Penn State @ Boise State
Georgia Tech @ Oregon
Iowa @ Ohio State

I as a college football fan would salivate over those match-ups. And they would probably lead to a second week of...

Ohio State @ Florida
Oregon @ Alabama
Boise State @ Texas
Virgina Tech @ TCU

How sick would that be? I'd love to see the Buckeyes go play at the swamp. I know things will change after next week. But come on...this would be awesome. And you can't tell me the regular season games wouldn't have mattered. Oklahoma losing just knocked OkieState out of it. Cincy vs. Pitt would be huge for both schools. Same with Oregon State/Oregon...HUGE!!! Ohio State's last 3 games would have been even BIGGER! Florida/Alabama may be for a second round home game. So yeah, maybe Florida Alabama isn't as big as it was, but most other games get bigger, and you also have 15 playoff games that would be bigger than anything a regular season can offer now.

You could still have the regular bowl games. You could even say that the losers in the first two rounds still go to another bowl. Why not? Those bowl games are already consolations prizes, so just keep them that way.
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Once the BCS pairings are out, I'm sure there will be some interesting games for you to watch as well....

Like... Texas Florida or Alabama Texas and Oregon Ohio State and such....
 
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