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Support for a literal interpretation of the Bible?

Buckeyeskickbuttocks

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So, I've been reading Maimonides for the first time in over fifteen years. Well.. I'm not reading the Guide for the Perplexed itself, instead I'm reading Kenneth Seeskin's 1991 Book which discusses the Guide which I last read in a Philosophy of Religion class I took in college. Anyway, with the topic heading in mind:

I'd like to know under what reason, as it compares to Maimonides contentions (which I'll outline as I understand them in a moment), one can think that the Bible - specifically the Old Test. is to be understood literally.

Shema Yisrael Adonoi Eloheynu Adoni Ehad.
Hear, O Israel, the Lord Our G-d, the Lord is One

This daily prayer, declares more than simple monotheism. It's not as easy as saying, there is but One true G-d. Instead, it says that that G-d is One... to talk about G-d's parts, even to the extent that we might think we're glorifying him - say calling him All Knowing - actually is an insult to G-d in as much as it denies his being ONE. G-d admits no plurality. In other words, to identify some part of G-d, even an infinite one, states that G-d is composed of parts making a whole. Maimonides would prefer to say, not what G-d is, but what G-d is not. "G-d is not without power" instead of "G-d is omnipotent" In "negative theology" we do not say what may be the individual parts of G-d and thereby suggest something other than Oneness.

One might ask, "But isn't saying "G-d is not without power" really just a way of saying G-d has power? And in doing so, aren't we once again piecing together a G-d of parts and not ONE?" Well.. yes... that's true. But Maimonides would not intend his negative theology to imply that. Instead, he would mean "G-d is not without power, nor does he possess it in any manner comparable to other things" Or, its not that G-d's properties - whatever they might be as we might contemplate them piecemeal - are different in degree from our own, but instead are different IN KIND. Actually, Maimonides would go further and say the best way to think about G-d is absolute silence, but appreciates that doing so is not for everyone.

In any event, the point is, G-d is unlike man. He is not more powerful than we. Instead, his power is on a completely different scale of review (If it could even be review, which I would say Maimonides would believe it cannot... and certainly not by man himself). He is not more perfect than man in any way at all. Instead, he is not comparable to man on these, and any metric.

OK.. the Bible also tells us in the Second Commandment that it is a sin to practice Idolatry. "Thou shalt not make unto thee graven image, nor any manner of likeness, or any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them."

Some have gone so far as to say that even thinking about G-d in anthropomorphic terms violates this commandment, and in doing so does not distinguish itself from a single deity form of paganism. Well, maybe... maybe not... I don't know. But, can't we say that - considering Maimonides' outline about what G-d is (not) - that it's true that whatever G-d might be doing, he's not walking with Moses. He's not sitting on a throne... he's not talking to Noah. To say that G-d is doing these things... talking, sitting, walking.. as a man might... Judaism - and later, Christianity - become nothing more than single deity paganism, right? Indeed, if we conceive of G-d as ONE, sitting, walking, talking... have no meaning in a literal sense.

Follow? If we admit to a G-d who sits, then G-d necessarily admits to plurality. To sit, for example, we need a front and a back. But, to be ONE - He has neither. Maimonides would hold that G-d would appear precisely the same when "viewed" from any angle.

Thus, every line in the Bible (Specifically the Torah) which speaks of G-d in anthropomorphic terms must be speaking in a non-literal way, otherwise it is not speaking about a G-d who is One or it is breaking its own description of a commandment against Idolatry. Thus, when we talk of G-d "seeing" we cannot accept that He looked upon something with His eyes. To have eyes, we'd have to admit that there is some other part of G-d which are not eyes... and we can't do that.

So.. Maimonides resolves that the Bible is written as it is because a jump from Paganism to Monotheism cannot be made wholesale. In short, the Bible is part of an educational process whose purpose is not to deceive the reader in to thinking G-d literally walked with any man, or literally spoke to any man, or any such thing. It is a vehicle, written in parable and narrative, to help people reach a state of monotheism - in the truest sense of the word. But, the Bible, out of necessity, speaks in the language of man, often times conveys ideas as if G-d were the lead character or hero of a novel in corporeal terms. But, whatever G-d is - he is not to be understood as that character.

Thus, the Bible can not be understood literally.
 
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1205633; said:
So, I've been reading Maimonides for the first time in over fifteen years. Well.. I'm not reading the Guide for the Perplexed itself, instead I'm reading Kenneth Seeskin's 1991 Book which discusses the Guide which I last read in a Philosophy of Religion class I took in college. Anyway, with the topic heading in mind:

I'd like to know under what reason, as it compares to Maimonides contentions (which I'll outline as I understand them in a moment), one can think that the Bible - specifically the Old Test. is to be understood literally.

Shema Yisrael Adonoi Eloheynu Adoni Ehad.
Hear, O Israel, the Lord Our G-d, the Lord is One

This daily prayer, declares more than simple monotheism. It's not as easy as saying, there is but One true G-d. Instead, it says that that G-d is One... to talk about G-d's parts, even to the extent that we might think we're glorifying him - say calling him All Knowing - actually is an insult to G-d in as much as it denies his being ONE. G-d admits no plurality. In other words, to identify some part of G-d, even an infinite one, states that G-d is composed of parts making a whole. Maimonides would prefer to say, not what G-d is, but what G-d is not. "G-d is not without power" instead of "G-d is omnipotent" In "negative theology" we do not say what may be the individual parts of G-d and thereby suggest something other than Oneness.

One might ask, "But isn't saying "G-d is not without power" really just a way of saying G-d has power? And in doing so, aren't we once again piecing together a G-d of parts and not ONE?" Well.. yes... that's true. But Maimonides would not intend his negative theology to imply that. Instead, he would mean "G-d is not without power, nor does he possess it in any manner comparable to other things" Or, its not that G-d's properties - whatever they might be as we might contemplate them piecemeal - are different in degree from our own, but instead are different IN KIND. Actually, Maimonides would go further and say the best way to think about G-d is absolute silence, but appreciates that doing so is not for everyone.

In any event, the point is, G-d is unlike man. He is not more powerful than we. Instead, his power is on a completely different scale of review (If it could even be review, which I would say Maimonides would believe it cannot... and certainly not by man himself). He is not more perfect than man in any way at all. Instead, he is not comparable to man on these, and any metric.

OK.. the Bible also tells us in the Second Commandment that it is a sin to practice Idolatry. "Thou shalt not make unto thee graven image, nor any manner of likeness, or any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them."

Some have gone so far as to say that even thinking about G-d in anthropomorphic terms violates this commandment, and in doing so does not distinguish itself from a single deity form of paganism. Well, maybe... maybe not... I don't know. But, can't we say that - considering Maimonides' outline about what G-d is (not) - that it's true that whatever G-d might be doing, he's not walking with Moses. He's not sitting on a throne... he's not talking to Noah. To say that G-d is doing these things... talking, sitting, walking.. as a man might... Judaism - and later, Christianity - become nothing more than single deity paganism, right? Indeed, if we conceive of G-d as ONE, sitting, walking, talking... have no meaning in a literal sense.

Follow? If we admit to a G-d who sits, then G-d necessarily admits to plurality. To sit, for example, we need a front and a back. But, to be ONE - He has neither. Maimonides would hold that G-d would appear precisely the same when "viewed" from any angle.

Thus, every line in the Bible (Specifically the Torah) which speaks of G-d in anthropomorphic terms must be speaking in a non-literal way, otherwise it is not speaking about a G-d who is One or it is breaking its own description of a commandment against Idolatry. Thus, when we talk of G-d "seeing" we cannot accept that He looked upon something with His eyes. To have eyes, we'd have to admit that there is some other part of G-d which are not eyes... and we can't do that.

So.. Maimonides resolves that the Bible is written as it is because a jump from Paganism to Monotheism cannot be made wholesale. In short, the Bible is part of an educational process whose purpose is not to deceive the reader in to thinking G-d literally walked with any man, or literally spoke to any man, or any such thing. It is a vehicle, written in parable and narrative, to help people reach a state of monotheism - in the truest sense of the word. But, the Bible, out of necessity, speaks in the language of man, often times conveys ideas as if G-d were the lead character or hero of a novel in corporeal terms. But, whatever G-d is - he is not to be understood as that character.

Thus, the Bible can not be understood literally.

Well, there are interesting clues in the Bible that suggest that a proto-religion existed that may have been polytheistic. Take Genesis 3:22 for example:
Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which changed their state of innocence to our mortal condition we are in now. Once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, our potentiality of becoming like our Heavenly Father was made manifest. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

And there is the reference to the Nephilim, thought by some to be fallen angels, or the offspring of angels and human women. Bible says:
"Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown." Genesis Chapter 6, verses 1-4.

The Ugaritic texts refer to the sons of El (The Highest God of Ugarit as "El", which is the same name the Hebrews called their God), and the Ugaritic texts say that 70 sons of God were created. The Court of El was called the Elohim, which is coincidently another name of the Hebrew Supreme Being. The Ugarit God El had a wife, Asherah consort of El. She was also called Athirat. In all events she is the "Queen of Heaven". Remember that phrase please.

There is a book by William Dever, "Did God have a wife", which is an interesting read about the Canaanite influence on early Hebrew religion. I recommend it to anyone who enjoys this sort of stuff. Anyway, what is undisputed is that archaeological digs in the Holy Land have turned up figurines of Asherah and Yaweh -together - and in some cases inscribed with what is translated: "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah".

Dever believes that there were two kinds of early Hebrew religions. The first was the formal, priestly religion that became the Torah. That version was the formal religion of the power elite, the noble classes, which was eventually written down. The other was the common man's religion (and the women's religion - for they were concerned with family and fertility issues), and as such that religions was not written down, and was seen as a second class religion of the white trash (brown trash?) That religion was not preserved in writing, as it was in competition with the One God of Abraham flavor. When the religion became more formalized, and the practice of religion more formal with a Priestly caste that turned worship into a high paying career, the elite (backed by the power of the State/King, like a sort of early Constantine) version won. But it was not always so. Remember, the years of exile after the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and took Judah, which resulted in many Hebrew prisoners being taken to Babylon, and the people naturally leaning to the religion of their conquerors.

A hint of that might be the Bible's references to this heresy. Asherah was worshiped by the baking of cakes in her honor at her festival.

The Bible says :
"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." Jeremiah 7:17?18

"... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..." Jeremiah 44:17

While there is no doubt that El or Elohim, or Yahweh became the One God of Israel, the cross pollination of Canaanite and other nearby religions had to have had some influence on the budding proto-religion.
 
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Gator -

I'm having trouble understanding your post as it relates to Maimonides' contentions against a literal understanding of the text.

Maybe I'm trying to imply a conclusion?

Anyway, I think your information would support Maimonides' contention that moving from paganism to monotheism needs to be taken gradually... and maybe that's what you're implying?

Even so, as it relates to literalism, should we take the polytheistic passages and believe that G-d has a wife? That minor gods were sleeping with humans? etc? I doubt your answer is "Yes" so that's what I mean by I'm not quite understanding your response. That said, I don't want to undermine the value of the information you've provided.
 
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muffler dragon;1205888; said:
Very cool thread, BKB. What a way to wake up in the morning! :biggrin:

I wanted to ask (for clarification sake): when you state:



Do you mean en toto? Or just with regard to G-d?
Hmm... guess I didn't think that one all the way through....

I can say I do mean with regard to G-d. As to the other parts of it, I'd say it's possible to probable that it should/could be understood literally. By that I mean, I think there are events written about in the Bible which are to be understood as real accountings of historical happenings. In other words, I think there were Hebrew slaves in Egypt, and I believe they were freed. Not sure about all the particulars, ie parting of the sea, but as to the events themselves generally, yes I think they literally happened.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1205907; said:
Hmm... guess I didn't think that one all the way through....

I can say I do mean with regard to G-d. As to the other parts of it, I'd say it's possible to probable that it should/could be understood literally. By that I mean, I think there are events written about in the Bible which are to be understood as real accountings of historical happenings. In other words, I think there were Hebrew slaves in Egypt, and I believe they were freed. Not sure about all the particulars, ie parting of the sea, but as to the events themselves generally, yes I think they literally happened.

Thanks for the clarification.

I view the Tanakh as an amalgamation of literal <=> non-literal. Events and occurrences should be looked at individually to determine. Ultimately, there are morals of the story regardless that can be gleaned. And, to me, that is often more important.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1205855; said:
Gator -

I'm having trouble understanding your post as it relates to Maimonides' contentions against a literal understanding of the text.

Maybe I'm trying to imply a conclusion?

Anyway, I think your information would support Maimonides' contention that moving from paganism to monotheism needs to be taken gradually... and maybe that's what you're implying?

Even so, as it relates to literalism, should we take the polytheistic passages and believe that G-d has a wife? That minor gods were sleeping with humans? etc? I doubt your answer is "Yes" so that's what I mean by I'm not quite understanding your response. That said, I don't want to undermine the value of the information you've provided.
You said:
So.. Maimonides resolves that the Bible is written as it is because a jump from Paganism to Monotheism cannot be made wholesale. In short, the Bible is part of an educational process whose purpose is not to deceive the reader in to thinking G-d literally walked with any man, or literally spoke to any man, or any such thing. It is a vehicle, written in parable and narrative, to help people reach a state of monotheism - in the truest sense of the word. But, the Bible, out of necessity, speaks in the language of man, often times conveys ideas as if G-d were the lead character or hero of a novel in corporeal terms. But, whatever G-d is - he is not to be understood as that character.

Thus, the Bible can not be understood literally.

Possibly.... the anthropomorphic aspects of the Godhead are reflections of the El Creator God, the one that was ubiquitous to the area for centuries, and that belonged to a pantheon. As the characteristics of Jehovah became less "the god of...[fill in the blank power]" with a wife, and more of the singular, all powerful all encompassing entity of the Israelites, the "spoke" "walked" influences waned. I think that he very much was to be understood as that character at one time.

And yes, that would negate a Bible as absolute fact model, as the document reflected a view of the creator that changed over time, and that is obviously not supportive of unchanging literal inerrant text.

Sorry to confuse the issue. It was nothing as cerebral as your contribution my friend, so that threw you off. :biggrin:
 
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Gatorubet;1205956; said:
You said:
So.. Maimonides resolves that the Bible is written as it is because a jump from Paganism to Monotheism cannot be made wholesale. In short, the Bible is part of an educational process whose purpose is not to deceive the reader in to thinking G-d literally walked with any man, or literally spoke to any man, or any such thing. It is a vehicle, written in parable and narrative, to help people reach a state of monotheism - in the truest sense of the word. But, the Bible, out of necessity, speaks in the language of man, often times conveys ideas as if G-d were the lead character or hero of a novel in corporeal terms. But, whatever G-d is - he is not to be understood as that character.

Thus, the Bible can not be understood literally.

Possibly.... the anthropomorphic aspects of the Godhead are reflections of the El Creator God, the one that was ubiquitous to the area for centuries, and that belonged to a pantheon. As the characteristics of Jehovah became less "the god of...[fill in the blank power]" with a wife, and more of the singular, all powerful all encompassing entity of the Israelites, the "spoke" "walked" influences waned. I think that he very much was to be understood as that character at one time.

And yes, that would negate a Bible as absolute fact model, as the document reflected a view of the creator that changed over time, and that is obviously not supportive of unchanging literal inerrant text.

Sorry to confuse the issue. It was nothing as cerebral as your contribution my friend, so that threw you off. :biggrin:

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.
 
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Muck;1205743; said:
Psalm 82 (New International Version)

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":
2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Footnotes:
  1. Psalm 82:2 The Hebrew is plural.
 
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Muck;1205743; said:

Gatorubet;1206149; said:
Psalm 82 (New International Version)

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":
2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Footnotes:
  1. Psalm 82:2 The Hebrew is plural.

FWIW, here is the same passage from a Jewish Tanakh:

Psalm 82
1. A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.

2. How long will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked forever?

3. Judge the poor and orphan; justify the humble and the impoverished.

4. Release the poor and the needy; save [them] from the hands of [the] wicked.

5. They did not know and they do not understand [that] they will walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth will totter.

6. I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."

7. Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.

8. Arise, O God, judge the earth, for You inherit all the nations.

The usage of "gods" in the Christian and "judges/angelic creatures" in the Jewish comes from "elohim". Elohim is a term that denotes authority. When Elohim is used in reference to G-d; then it is singular as determined from the context (i.e. grammar and verb usage). Whereas, the plural usage of the word denotes angels and judges who have been given authority for some purpose.

Bringing this back to the OP, the passage would be rendered not literal.
 
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Isn't a "literal interpretation" only really important to those who consider the Bible, G-d's divine words? My view. This doesn't make it any less worthy as a source of guidelines to live your daily life by. Similar to say, the Ghagavad Gita or the Dhammapada.
 
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muffler dragon;1206172; said:
FWIW, here is the same passage from a Jewish Tanakh:

Psalm 82
1. A song of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He will judge.

2. How long will you judge unjustly and favor the wicked forever?

3. Judge the poor and orphan; justify the humble and the impoverished.

4. Release the poor and the needy; save [them] from the hands of [the] wicked.

5. They did not know and they do not understand [that] they will walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth will totter.

6. I said, "You are angelic creatures, and all of you are angels of the Most High."

7. Indeed, as man, you will die, and as one of the princes, you will fall.

8. Arise, O God, judge the earth, for You inherit all the nations.

The usage of "gods" in the Christian and "judges/angelic creatures" in the Jewish comes from "elohim". Elohim is a term that denotes authority. When Elohim is used in reference to G-d; then it is singular as determined from the context (i.e. grammar and verb usage). Whereas, the plural usage of the word denotes angels and judges who have been given authority for some purpose.


bringing this back to the OP, the passage would be rendered not literal.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Psalm_82_overview.pdf

Muff - for your consideration. Safe to say that there is scholarly disagreement on this translation. Like much Biblical scholarship, the theological presumptions change the outcomes. This is not so much a criticism of any opinion, but an observation. For those convinced of God's singularity, any mention of polytheism would be fantastic and inconceivable.

But no matter the outcome, it points to the difficulty in proclaiming one's version of the Word as the One True Word. When one has a mind set that the whole document has to be internally consistent, it leads to some interesting assumptions. When a person have no theological dog in the hunt, I would imagine a better translation. Just a guess, not a criticism of anybody.

Let me edit this, as Muff, it still might look as an attack on your methodology or conclusion, or worse, a statement that you let your theology interfere with your logic. I meant neither, which is why I took out several "you" and put "one's..but it still looks wrong.

What I mean is, like in the case of Catholics reading the words about Jesus' brothers. Mary is a Virgin, and as they do not want Joseph to have sex with her ever, they assert the "Brother" as universal and not familial interpretation. Well brother means brother as far as my research shows, but it is an example of how a theological assumption will pollute an academic issue. For both Jews and Christians, any deviation from One God conflicts with everything they know about the Bible, and it stands in the way of the possibility that Elohim here means Elohim - a council of demi-gods or Divine beings. It's not like the ancient Jews were insulated from the influences of other cultures, and the Bible admits that the people lost their way from time to time, theologically.

As an aside, what do you think the Nephilim were?
 
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Taosman;1206271; said:
Isn't a "literal interpretation" only really important to those who consider the Bible, G-d's divine words?

Not really. I consider the Tanakh to be divine, but I don't consider it completely literal.

Taosman said:
My view. This doesn't make it any less worthy as a source of guidelines to live your daily life by. Similar to say, the Bhagavad Gita or the Dhammapada.

FIFY. :biggrin:
 
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Gatorubet;1206333; said:
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Psalm_82_overview.pdf

Muff - for your consideration. Safe to say that there is scholarly disagreement on this translation. Like much Biblical scholarship, the theological presumptions change the outcomes. This is not so much a criticism of any opinion, but an observation. For those convinced of God's singularity, any mention of polytheism would be fantastic and inconceivable.

But no matter the outcome, it points to the difficulty in proclaiming one's version of the Word as the One True Word. When one has a mind set that the whole document has to be internally consistent, it leads to some interesting assumptions. When a person have no theological dog in the hunt, I would imagine a better translation. Just a guess, not a criticism of anybody.

Understood.

From what (little) I have seen on this topic, the Jewish translations and understanding of the text seems to be universal. When this universality came into being, I haven't a clue. However, this link shows Rashi's understanding of the passage. This would go back to the 12th century and/or before.
 
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